# How to make an Athiest believe **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 31, 2003, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179 "2003-07-31T17:30:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Phoenix\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Phoenix\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phoenix_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/261 "2003-08-11T23:09:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\*You guys are doing exactly what the article says you do. > Bravo! \*\* As MEBuckner said, I addressed every single one of your points, and not a single one applies to anyone here (With the possible exception of 11, if you count the pit threads your repeated and unyielding posts have generated…). If you think I’m doing “exactly what the article says I do,” care to point out just _how_? I’d be interested to see how you’re twisting what I have said to claim that I fit that list. …And for someone who complains about people not “facing facts”, do you think you could answer the damn questions already: > [@](#): > > 1. Is there any evidence that Pam Reynold’s mind didn’t create the dream-like memories while it was still opperating, or while “shutting down” or “starting up?” > 2. Do you believe it is impossible for someone to dream of floating out of their body, looking down to see it, and conversing with a “being of light,” the same conditions that you have described as identifying NDEs? ---
**Author:** ![Ryle\_Dup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Ryle\_Dup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryle_Dup)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/262 "2003-08-11T23:34:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chicago Faucet \* > \*\*The one thing that would force this Atheist to believe is if someday we had contact with an alien species who was in possession of a Bible. Not our Bible, but their own documentation of a Jesus/Moses/Mohammad type of character brought to them from someone they refer to as “God”. > > Granted: The Bible that the alien species had would not have to match up word for word (how could it?), but the main themes would have to match. > > Exception: If the alien species was anything like humans, then they too would be looking to the sky for answers, and may invent beings to explain such events as floods, famines, and disease. \*\* Wouldn’t “force” anyone to do jack. If the aliens are similiar enough to us for us to be able to communicate, then they are probly similar enough in order to develop religion, heck, if they get that far, morals might even be the same. Besides, if they had another book filled with the same kinda stuff that’s in the bible, I’d expect it should be taken in the same manner as which the bible is taken by athiests, that which is, not evidence that god exists. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/263 "2003-08-11T23:40:19Z")
I see this becoming another **Kenny Kattein** hijack thread. Some of you guys/gals(?) here know better. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/264 "2003-08-11T23:53:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chicago Faucet \* > \*\*The one thing that would force this Atheist to believe is if someday we had contact with an alien species who was in possession of a Bible. Not our Bible, but their own documentation of a Jesus/Moses/Mohammad type of character brought to them from someone they refer to as “God”. > > Granted: The Bible that the alien species had would not have to match up word for word (how could it?), but the main themes would have to match. > > Exception: If the alien species was anything like humans, then they too would be looking to the sky for answers, and may invent beings to explain such events as floods, famines, and disease. \*\* It would be more convincing to me if there were exact duplicates of a holy book or tradition instead of merely analogs. Similar developments could be merely the result of similar processes in similar circumstances. It is often noted that it can be helpful to seperate the discussion of religion into two parts- the faith experiences, contact w/ the numinous etc and cumulative traditions. A quick survey will show that the greater divergence is among the cumulative traditions. The faith experience, contact w/ the numinous, by far shares more commonality from tradition to tradition throught history and geography than the traditions do. These kinds of observations give rise to groups like that try to find a “grand unification theory” of religion. I _think_ that the Bahai are one such group of many. A faith experience while similar to other’s faith experiences is perceived through and subsequently shared through the lens of the experiencer’s cultural background. The background provides either a basis or contrast for the experience when it comes to the subsequent expression of the occurence. It’s quit possible for an atheirst to have one of these exeriences and attribute it to an external theistic source. It’s also possible for such a person to attribute it to something other. _In and of itself_, all of the intellectualizing in the world won’t change someone’s beliefs about theism. The decision to embrace faith is not an intellectual one. It is a visceral one. Only viseral reactions can provoke a dramatic swing from theism to atheism. ---
**Author:** ![sixseven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b9bd4f/32.png) [@sixseven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sixseven)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/265 "2003-08-14T22:30:35Z")
Mottpot, an earlier poster has suggested you talk to a priest, and I second this idea. It’s classic great debate straightdope procedure to bury a great suggestion under pages and pages of posts from intellectuals who want to spout off and just feel intelligent, without regard to the original question. This lengthy thread has been no exception. Save yourself a great deal of time reading all this God-bashing nonsense in this thread and just make an appointment to talk to a priest. Your friend sounds like he is a member of a denomination that is of the born-again variety. This denomination may or may not appeal to you, so if in exploring this denomination you get turned off, just try another one. I’m not saying that the born-agains are a negative denomination, I just encourage people to find a denomination that they feel comfortable relating to. The reason I would like you to talk to a priest is it is best to get information from one who is an expert, knows about faith and is trained to explain things in a way that is understandable. You cannot get answers about God on the straightdope simply from intellectuals. You sound sincerely interested in keeping an open mind, so I had to give you an equally sincere response. Seek a priest. Ask your friend if he can help you out, maybe even recommend a priest or go with you to one, or go solo if you feel more comfortable without your friend. But please don’t take the word of straight dopers on such a serious subject, they are not qualified to guide you adequately. ---
**Author:** ![sixseven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b9bd4f/32.png) [@sixseven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sixseven)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/266 "2003-08-15T06:07:44Z")
Oops! I may have been out of line again. Just trying to support God here, in a world where many people intellectualize and rationalize Him away. Didn’t mean to imply straight dopers know nothing. In this case though, a member of the clergy - a really good, caring, non-pushy advisor type - is the best expert resource to consult. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/267 "2003-08-15T06:24:42Z")
Well, **sixseven** , I certainly agree that all this blindly-believing-in-God nonsense is un-intellectual and irrational. ---
**Author:** ![Dostromin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c0e974/32.png) [@Dostromin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dostromin)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/268 "2003-08-15T06:47:04Z")
I think when a child is born that the parents will bring up that child teaching him/her the doctrines of the church that the parents attend. Thus the child has it installed firmly in his/her mind that whatever the church says is basically fact. I find this to be quite unsetteling, and almost a form of brainwash. If you ever provide solid evidence against a religion (which does exist, but not to a great degree) to someone who was born into a church, it will be as if talking to a brick wall. They don’t really listen at those times, and it is near impossible to get people in this situation to convert. I think that in many cases people do not really make the choice to believe in God. I personally am not christian, though my mother is. I was brought up as a Jehovah’s Witness, and while my mother and I never went to the Kingdom Hall often, I was a believer. As I grew older, I began to read the Bible on my own and I came to the conclusion that I didn’t like the church (if you can call it that). I began studying other variations of christianity (mormonism, catholicism, lutheranism) and found that those too had doctrines not supported by the Bible. I was finally pulled away from Religion alltogether when I came to the understanding that there really is no free will with God. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/269 "2003-08-15T10:00:46Z")
Hi Dostromin When children grow up in any belief system, it is a form of brainwashing. Whether the system is religious or not. You are right. Atheists can grow up in that belief system also. But I don’t think it would be our task to change anyone’s belief system, as long as they are not harming others. Each individual, hopefully, will realized their “brainwashing” and study for themselves what they want to believe. I am wondering about your last statement of “there is no free will with God.” Could you explain more. Love Leroy ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/270 "2003-08-16T06:50:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sixseven \* > \*\*Mottpot, an earlier poster has suggested you talk to a priest, and I second this idea. It’s classic great debate straightdope procedure to bury a great suggestion under pages and pages of posts from intellectuals who want to spout off and just feel intelligent, without regard to the original question. This lengthy thread has been no exception. > > Save yourself a great deal of time reading all this God-bashing nonsense in this thread and just make an appointment to talk to a priest. Your friend sounds like he is a member of a denomination that is of the born-again variety. This denomination may or may not appeal to you, so if in exploring this denomination you get turned off, just try another one. I’m not saying that the born-agains are a negative denomination, I just encourage people to find a denomination that they feel comfortable relating to. > > The reason I would like you to talk to a priest is it is best to get information from one who is an expert, knows about faith and is trained to explain things in a way that is understandable. You cannot get answers about God on the straightdope simply from intellectuals. > > You sound sincerely interested in keeping an open mind, so I had to give you an equally sincere response. Seek a priest. Ask your friend if he can help you out, maybe even recommend a priest or go with you to one, or go solo if you feel more comfortable without your friend. But please don’t take the word of straight dopers on such a serious subject, they are not qualified to guide you adequately. \*\* Absolutely. It might also help to stick your fingers in your ears and shout “I DO believe in God…I DO believe in God.” Be sure and shout it as loud as you can, to be really positive you drown out any dissenting voices. Don’t listen to the intellectuals with their “logic” and “reason”; you will never convince yourself to have faith unless you turn a deaf ear to those pesky “facts”. Also be sure to associate only with religious people; that way you won’t ever be exposed to any dissenting opinions that might sway you against your faith. Lastly, be sure to employ selective reinforcement; take note of events that by any stretch of the imagination could loosely be interpreted to bolster your belief, but ignore any that don’t. Found a great parking space? God did it. No line at the ATM? God did it. Just be sure to ignore the really long line the _next_ day. God didn’t do _that_ one. Good luck.😉 ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/271 "2003-08-16T12:46:29Z")
In the calm and peace of solitude you will find the Creator’s love. It is unmistakeable, unique, instantly knowable from the beginning. God’s love is within you, it has always been there, waiting for you to notice. You can’t force it, grab it, order it, or get it from someone else. You can only allow it to come forth and be experienced. Calm and clear your thoughts, analyze nothing, judge nothing, just allow yourself to be in truth. Forgive the world, forgive all others. Be yourself and only yourself, no posturing, no rationalzation, no preferences, and no expectations. From the midst of emptiness will come the fullness of God’s love and compassion flowing through you to others, and you will never need to ask for guidance to God again. Love Leroy ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2003, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/272 "2003-08-17T14:43:53Z")
As for the original question;[Not like this](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3157555.stm) ---
**Author:** ![I\_Know\_Nothing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f04885/32.png) [@I\_Know\_Nothing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Know_Nothing)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/273 "2003-08-18T12:25:19Z")
All you need to do is read the bible. Everything you need to know is in there. Since there are plenty of versions available in English, you do not need some higher authority to translate the meaning for you(spin doctor). If you have read the bible and think it is a bunch of crap, well then there’s you answer. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/274 "2003-08-18T12:58:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by I\_Know\_Nothing \* > \*\*If you have read the bible and think it is a bunch of crap, well then there’s you answer. \*\* I can agree with this 100%. Not that I think the Bible is a bunch of crap – but nor do I think it’s an accurate reflection of objective reality. As for **sixseven’s** suggestions: sure, go talk to a priest if the Christian thing piques your interest. That’s sound advice. Go talk with an author of Westerns if the whole cowboy thing piques your interest, and go talk to a hydrologist if the whole river thing piques your interest. Go talk with a senator if you’re interested in American politics. If you’re curious about a field of knowledge, whether or not you believe that knowledge to be fictional, you ought to go talk to an expert in that field. Personally, I don’t find the Christian thing to be very interesting. Discussions about the nature of religion? cool stuff, very diverting. Questions about Jesus proper? Ho hum, not my hobby. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179.md?page=13)