# How to make an Athiest believe **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 31, 2003, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179 "2003-07-31T17:30:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2003, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/61 "2003-08-01T18:23:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by green\_dragon \* > if it’s all garbage surely it would have been discredited by now? You sure you want to go with that argument? ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2003, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/62 "2003-08-01T18:42:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GodlessSkeptic \* > \*\*No one has to make such effort to convince themselves of gravity’s existence. \*\* Really? what kind of effort did you have to make to believe in electrons? Ever hear of a Muon? Your non-belief doesnt make real things disappear and things do exist without the benefit of our senses being able to detect them. Prior to Columbus, was the world really flat because a worldful of people believed it so? I would think it took a whole lot of effort to convince people that the world was round, but yet it was round all the time. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*Okay, I have to ask about this – what are you trying to imply here, **X~Slayer?** Because it seems to me you’re veering _verrrrrrrrrrrry_ close to opening the can of worms that reads “only religious people can be good citizens”… \*\* Not at all. Some of the most henious people are religious. I separate the distinction between religion and the belief of God. The OP is “How to make an Atheist believe” in God. I find it funny that some atheists here are trying to convince him not to. Believing in God or being religious has nothing to do with being a good citizen. From what i can gather from **Mottpot** ’s posts, he already is a good soul and he is neither a theist or religious. The fact that he may decide to switch wont have any bearing on his status as a good person. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2003, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/63 "2003-08-01T19:03:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by X~Slayer(ALE) \* > The OP is “How to make an Atheist believe” in God. I find it funny that some atheists here are trying to convince him not to. Not exactly. The sentiment I saw expressed was along the lines of “Why do you want to force yourself to believe something that you don’t think is true?” Not really the same thing as trying to convince him not to believe in God. And why does that strike you as “funny”? ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2003, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/64 "2003-08-01T19:29:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Svt4Him \* > \*\* > > A two-year-old boy was once staring at a heater, fascinated by its bright orange glow.\*\* This explanation is found at: [http://www.fishthe.net/tracts/knowyoursaved.htm](http://www.fishthe.net/tracts/knowyoursaved.htm) ---
**Author:** ![BRAXTER101](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/fbc32d/32.png) [@BRAXTER101](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BRAXTER101)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2003, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/65 "2003-08-01T19:32:21Z")
I like to think that there are no athiests at the wrong end of a gun. If youve never had an experience like that I suggest that you try to imagine what would go through your mind in such a situation. Just leaving your home is a risk. I thought I heard that rhere are 4,000 deaths a month on our highways! Being born under the nuclear threat I was always aware of the fragility of my existance. furthermore I read revelation wich realy amaxed and scared me. I wondered how these poeple 2000 years ago could even concieve of an appoccolypse. I dont think there was ever a reson for them to think about such a thing. The predictions in that book are a vision of the capabilities of present day technology. there is a God, and he wants poeple to wake up! you are fortunate to be alive now because 100 years ago none of that stuff would have appeared to be viable, and therefore you wouldnt get to wonder how they could think of such appoccalyptic senerios so long ago. also, the argument for evolution is loosong ground rapidly I could go on but Im late for an appointment. I hope you find jesus he knows every hair on your head. And he loves you!😃 ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2003, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/66 "2003-08-01T19:41:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by blowero \* > \*\*Not exactly. The sentiment I saw expressed was along the lines of “Why do you want to force yourself to believe something that you don’t think is true?” Not really the same thing as trying to convince him not to believe in God. > > And why does that strike you as “funny”? \*\* Its a bit of a hijack dont you think? The OP wanted some information and some people here post to stop him from looking for that information and actually give him the opposite information. I find it funny that certain atheists “religiously” guard their own. it brings up visions of atheists calling Heresy on a person thinking of believing in God. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2003, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/67 "2003-08-01T19:49:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BRAXTER101 \* > **I like to think that there are no athiests at the wrong end of a gun.** Of course, any real Christian knows that the wrong end of the gun is the end where you’re pointing the gun at somebody else, right? Or is martyrdom well and truly dead? Seriously, dude, think what you like. If you like to think that marshmallow hummingbirds are whizzing around my bottom, you’re welcome to think that – but it doesn’t make it any truer or more sensible. While you’re obviously and inarguably incorrect – while there are plenty of atheists who have been shot and maintained their atheism – there is a little bit of truth in what you say. Folks in desperate trouble sometimes reach out for help, whether or not help is available. And whether or not God exists, the idea of God promises help to people in desperate circumstances. So sometimes, people who don’t beleive in God nevertheless pray to this being they don’t believe in, simply because they have no rational hope for help. Their actions have no bearing on whether God exists, any more than do the actions of a Christian cancer-victim who, in a moment of rage, rejects God. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2003, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/68 "2003-08-01T19:55:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BRAXTER101 \* > I like to think that there are no athiests at the wrong end of a gun. Even if this worn-out platitude _were_ true, it wouldn’t speak well for the veracity of a belief that only manifests itself under duress. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2003, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/69 "2003-08-01T20:09:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by X~Slayer(ALE) \* > Its a bit of a hijack dont you think? The OP wanted some information and some people here post to stop him from looking for that information and actually give him the opposite information. No, I think it was relevant. In a broader sense, the OP is searching for knowledge, and he’s not going to find it with only one side of the coin. I fail to see how asking him why he’s trying to convince himself of something is equivalent to “stopping” him from doing so. > [@](#): > > I find it funny that certain atheists “religiously” guard their own. it brings up visions of atheists calling Heresy on a person thinking of believing in God. Wow, that’s kind of a stretch, don’t you think?:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![SparrowHawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac8455/32.png) [@SparrowHawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SparrowHawk)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2003, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/70 "2003-08-01T20:22:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > **I just knew that someone would say they had a NDE and still didn’t believe in God. I guess I should have qualified NDE. A near death experience is an actual death, yes, I know the words don’t indicate that, but we are stuck with what Dr. Raymond Moody called it over 30 years ago. Although this is sometimes misleading. I have had people tell me that they were almost hit by a car and didn’t see nothing.** I had a feeling that anything that contradicts **lekatt’s** orthodoxy would be explained away. For the record, my friend did not have a “near miss.” She fell asleep in a room with a portable heater and was overcome by the fumes. She went through the whole tunnel and light thing, and perceived a destination before her. Her experience was not “somebody loves me, it must be God,” it was “If I can just get _there_ everything will be all right.” That is what I meant by “a sense of place.” Thus, she believes in an afterlife; she does not believe in God. She was saved when her husband came home, turned off the heater, and got her medical attention. I would characterize her general religious outlook as Buddhist, though she is not a religious person. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2003, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/71 "2003-08-01T20:23:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by blowero \* > \*\*Even if this worn-out platitude _were_ true, it wouldn’t speak well for the veracity of a belief that only manifests itself under duress. \*\* People are more likely to look for help when under duress. In the two situations of duress I came through (hurricane, collision) that were serious enough to cause death. I didn’t see anyone claiming to be an atheist. All those I saw were praying and fighting to hold on. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2003, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/72 "2003-08-01T20:33:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\*In the two situations of duress I came through (hurricane, collision) that were serious enough to cause death. I didn’t see anyone claiming to be an atheist. All those I saw were praying and fighting to hold on. \*\* So you went, person by person, during this hurricane and this collision, and interviewed each and every person about their religious beliefs or lack of same. Feh. I’ve been through hurricanes and collisions (and I’ve seen fire and I’ve seen rain), and it didn’t make me believe in gods or afterlives. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2003, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/73 "2003-08-01T21:03:29Z")
I dunno, every time I’m in a hurricane, for every person praying to god, there’s at least three people screaming above the howling winds, “INCIDENTALLY, EVERYBODY, YOU’LL BE HAPPY TO KNOW THAT I STILL FIND THE EVIDENCE FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD TO BE UNCONVINCING!” Oh, wait – you said “All those I saw were praying and fighting to hold on.” Sure you don’t mean “and/or”? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2003, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/74 "2003-08-01T21:03:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by blowero \* > \*\*No, I think it was relevant. _In a broader sense, the OP is searching for knowledge_, and he’s not going to find it with only one side of the coin. I fail to see how asking him why he’s trying to convince himself of something is equivalent to “stopping” him from doing so. \*\* \ Well, thats a pretty good rationale to just about hijack any thread on this board. OP: _I want the recipe for apple pie…_ Reply: Why the heck would you want to do that? Heres a recipe for peach cobbler instead. Its way better. Apple pies are dumb. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Wow, that’s kind of a stretch, don’t you think?:rolleyes: \*\* really?? youre the one telling him not to believe when he was asking how to believe. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2003, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/75 "2003-08-01T21:16:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eve \* > \*\*So you went, person by person, during this hurricane and this collision, and interviewed each and every person about their religious beliefs or lack of same. > > Feh. I’ve been through hurricanes and collisions (and I’ve seen fire and I’ve seen rain), and it didn’t make me believe in gods or afterlives. \*\* Well, I was tied to a stanchion, holding onto the lines while the ship was taking 60 foot high waves. We didn’t think we would live through it. I looked around, didn’t see anyone that wasn’t praying, including the captain. But, I am sure you have endured much worse and suffered a great deal more in all kinds of disasters and still remain atheist. Hey, I was just relating my experience, ok, not trying to convert anyone. Don’t really care whether you are an athest or not. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2003, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/76 "2003-08-01T21:18:29Z")
**Slayer** , my contention isn’t that you SHOULDN’T make an atheist believe; it’s that you CAN’T make an atheist truly believe. Brainwashing techniques don’t result in true belief: they result in the subject’s learning to suppress their beliefs almost completely. I think folks are telling him that trying to believe is useless. That’s certainly what I’m saying. And if you’re worried about hijacking the thread, you’d best quit hijacking it yourself. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2003, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/77 "2003-08-01T21:20:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > \*\*I dunno, every time I’m in a hurricane, for every person praying to god, there’s at least three people screaming above the howling winds, “INCIDENTALLY, EVERYBODY, YOU’LL BE HAPPY TO KNOW THAT I STILL FIND THE EVIDENCE FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD TO BE UNCONVINCING!” > > Oh, wait – you said “All those I saw were praying and fighting to hold on.” Sure you don’t mean “and/or”? > > Daniel \*\* Hi Daniel I meant what I said, that’s why I said it. You want to make a joke, it’s ok, joke all you want. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2003, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/78 "2003-08-01T21:21:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\* I looked around, didn’t see anyone that wasn’t praying, including the captain. \*\* The relevant questions are: 1. Were the people around you atheists prior to the storm? If you were on a ship full of theists, this isn’t very interesting. 2. If any of them professed atheism prior to the storm, did they profess it afterwards as well? 3. So what? Even if we stipulate that people ask a divine being for help when they’re frightened, what does that mean except that desperate people do desperate things? Does it have any bearing on a discussion over whether God actually exists? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2003, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/79 "2003-08-01T21:24:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > **A near death experience is an actual death, yes, I know the words don’t indicate that, but we are stuck with what Dr. Raymond Moody called it over 30 years ago.** No. No, it isn’t. An NDE can accompany a cessation of breathing. An NDE can accompany cardiac arrest. But neither of these fit the clinical definition of “death.” Only brain death qualifies as death, and **no one** has “come back” from brain death to tell us what it was like. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2003, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/80 "2003-08-01T21:24:58Z")
I can’t prove God exists, even though I know He does. But life after death can and has been proven. See the research in Readers Digest aug 2003. It’s on the front cover page. None save the closed-minded skeptic will disbelieve the evidence. Love Leroy [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179.md?page=5)