# How to make an Athiest believe **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 31, 2003, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179 "2003-07-31T17:30:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![NF124](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/46a35a/32.png) [@NF124](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NF124)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/121 "2003-08-02T21:55:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mottpot \* > \*\*I was having a conversation with my friend the other night about religion. My friend is a Christian and I am an atheist. Over the years we have been friends he has repeatedly told me that he feels bad for me because I am a good person, but I will be going to hell because I have not accepted Christ into my heart. It makes him very upset. > I would like to think that I have an open mind. I am totally willing to listen to other people’s beliefs and take them into consideration. I have chosen my atheist beliefs because it makes the most sense to me and I have been unable to find any evidence that would make me believe in a God or anything associated with that God. > Over the course of our conversation I realized that I don’t know what it would take for me to accept that this being created us, that He rules our lives, that there is a heaven and a hell. > I tried to explain this to my friend and I don’t think he really understands. He is 100% sure that there is a God. I have to say that I am not 100% sure that there is not a God, but pretty darn close. I am willing to accept that there is a God, but what will it take for me? > > I ask him why he has faith, why he is 100% sure and he can’t really explain that to me. > Since joining these boards I have really enjoyed reading all the religious debates and a common thing I see with devoted Christians (or Catholics or I guess any religion) is that they made a choice to believe in God, or something happened to them to make them believe. They tell me to make this choice. > > My question is how can I make that choice? What do I have to do to accept Jesus into my heart? I have an open mind and I will listen but as I explained to my friend, the total devotion that he has can’t be there for me because I have a lot of doubt in my heart. I can’t just say “Ok I believe in God now” and live my life that way. > > To you believers, what would you propose I do to come closer to believing in God? \*\* You are already doing the one thing you can do to gain a closer relationship with God; that is, you are keeping an open mind and you are interested to know more about Him. That, I sincerely believe, is all you need. If God is so fair as he claims, he WILL give you a good reason relative to you on why you (and I say that specifically) should believe. I believe everyone has their chance, but not everyone wants one. Instead, they rather stay with what they’re comfortable with. I say this honestly to you because I believe in God. But I sometimes feel as if my faith isn’t 100 percent. I don’t see how I could ever be 100 percent sure _logically_, but I believe that God will one day give me _my reason_ to believe. So far, I’ve been keeping an open mind and I’m trying to learn as much as I can. Faith is defined as believing in something that is uncertain, almost like trusting someone. I do not believe it is proper to have faith without reason. To see a person quickly trust someone he just met on the street would make me conclude that he is ignorant, just like it would be to have an all-out faith in “some god” that you know little about. It takes time to build faith: time to build trust. I know that trust evolves over time between humans, and I believe it is the same with my faith in God. With that said, I’m left to say one more thing. You already have the open mind. You have opened “your door” to let God come in. It is up to Him to take those steps inside, and He WILL take them. But don’t wait; prove to Him that you are really interested. Yes, He already sees your heart, but do it anyway. Keep talking to your friend. Start slow, and one day God will _personally_ show His existence to you. ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/122 "2003-08-03T01:08:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > \*\ ***lekatt** , **x-slayer** , I am not so arrogant as to tell you how your minds work. Please return the favor; you’re certainly ignorant of how mine works, obnoxiously so. If you’re not willing to believe me when I tell you how my mind works, at least have the grace to keep your opinions on it to yourself. > > Daniel \*\* Houston. We hit a nerve. 😛 I am backing off now. ---
**Author:** ![MrO](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/50afbb/32.png) [@MrO](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrO)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/123 "2003-08-03T03:53:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > \*\*The point of all this is to show him that you’re not choosing your belief in the absence of God: it’s a conclusion you inevitably came to, given your experiences of the world. Daniel \*\* I’m bummed that I came upon this thread so late. The subject is important to me. In a big paper I wrote for an MA focusing on cultural criticism, the question of whether one can choose one’s true beliefs was crucial. My conclusions really depended on the proposition that there is a distinction between faith and belief. Faith can be chosen to an extent, but true belief is a spontaneous occurrence. Every member of my advisory committe, intelligent people whom I respected, disagreed. They insisted that we can choose to believe whatever we wished. I was flabbergasted–it seems perfectly obvious to me that we cannot. Of course beliefs change. Evidence appears or is discredited, we learn more, our mental capacities change, and our beliefs change. We don’t choose to stop believing in Santa, it just becomes impossible to continue. I could try to believe again, try to exert faith in Santa, but I would be pretending. I don’t really believe. I did not choose to be an atheist. I resisted it for years, struggling to believe, not allowing myself to entertain the thought that Christianity and religion in general might be nothing more than a bunch of stories. Eventually I could no longer deny that I didn’t believe the stories. The committee insisted that I change the focus of my paper, and it turned into some inane drivel that I don’t even remember. They loved it; I got an A. Anyway, well said, **DanielWithrow**. I wish I had had your coin example back then. ---
**Author:** ![SparrowHawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac8455/32.png) [@SparrowHawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SparrowHawk)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/124 "2003-08-03T04:17:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MrO \* > **…true belief is a spontaneous occurrence. Every member of my advisory committe, intelligent people whom I respected, disagreed. They insisted that we can choose to believe whatever we wished.** Wow. How did they defend that position? Though I realize, as a student, you weren’t necessarily in a position to demand they do so. I’d be curious as to how they explained that. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/125 "2003-08-03T04:18:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > \*\ ***lekatt** , **x-slayer** , I am not so arrogant as to tell you how your minds work. Please return the favor; you’re certainly ignorant of how mine works, obnoxiously so. If you’re not willing to believe me when I tell you how my mind works, at least have the grace to keep your opinions on it to yourself. > > Daniel \*\* Do you not look, listen and read the available material about controversial ideas. Then make a choice of what you will believe? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/126 "2003-08-03T04:35:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MrO \* > \*\*I’m bummed that I came upon this thread so late. The subject is important to me. In a big paper I wrote for an MA focusing on cultural criticism, the question of whether one can choose one’s true beliefs was crucial. My conclusions really depended on the proposition that there is a distinction between faith and belief. Faith can be chosen to an extent, but true belief is a spontaneous occurrence. Every member of my advisory committe, intelligent people whom I respected, disagreed. They insisted that we can choose to believe whatever we wished. > > I was flabbergasted–it seems perfectly obvious to me that we cannot. Of course beliefs change. Evidence appears or is discredited, we learn more, our mental capacities change, and our beliefs change. We don’t choose to stop believing in Santa, it just becomes impossible to continue. I could try to believe again, try to exert faith in Santa, but I would be pretending. I don’t really believe. > > I did not choose to be an atheist. I resisted it for years, struggling to believe, not allowing myself to entertain the thought that Christianity and religion in general might be nothing more than a bunch of stories. Eventually I could no longer deny that I didn’t believe the stories. > > The committee insisted that I change the focus of my paper, and it turned into some inane drivel that I don’t even remember. They loved it; I got an A. Anyway, well said, **DanielWithrow**. I wish I had had your coin example back then. \*\* I agree with your advisory committee. I don’t understand your position. Why would you believe you didn’t chose to be an atheist. But, I think I’m beginning to understand. You were taught religion when young and as you grew older and wiser, you could no longer believe the doctrine of religion. So, that meant atheists must be correct. Something like that. OK. But you could have chosen to be agnostic, or just not decided to be anything. I know there is a creator, a higher power, but I don’t hold to any religion. I use what I like from them and go on. There are not just two paths, there are as many paths as there are people. And yes, we do choose the path we will follow. To say one doesn’t chose their beliefs is to say one is controlled by outside influences at all times and not responsible for any of their actions. Not a tenable position. Love ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/127 "2003-08-03T04:39:22Z")
So, if you see a black cat, you could simply choose to believe it’s white? ---
**Author:** ![Phoenix\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Phoenix\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phoenix_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/128 "2003-08-03T04:40:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > **However, NDEs, especially the longer ones contain verifiable information about the physical world that the person could not know before or during their “death”.** Yet as pointed out to you several times already, whenever a doctor places a visibly distinct object somewhere in the room where it would never be seen physically by the patient, yet would be plainly visible if viewed from above the patient, no NDE experiencer has _ever_ identified the object, or knew it was there, no matter how precicely they describe everything else in the room. The one and only verifiable piece that is known, for sure, to have had no other way for the patient to find out about it, is the only one not found. Funny that, huh? > [@](#): > > **If you had read the documentation, you wouldn’t need to ask the question. It was answered.** I saw nothing in the “documentation” regarding the possibility of forming dream-like memories durring the time the brain was starting up or shutting down. Care to give any explanation? Don’t just tell me to read it, I did, and I didn’t find any. Write it out here in your own words for a change. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/129 "2003-08-03T04:43:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > **I know there is a creator, a higher power, but I don’t hold to any religion.** I question your use of the word “know” in this context. Admittedly, he boundry between belief and knowledge is often fuzzy, but still, I’m curious as to where you, personally, draw the line between what you believe and what you know. > [@](#): > > **To say one doesn’t chose their beliefs is to say one is controlled by outside influences at all times and not responsible for any of their actions. Not a tenable position.** I think it could be better phrased as “people can’t choose to believe any arbitrary thing.” It would be completely impossible for me to believe in, lets say, the Tooth Fairy. Are you saying that you _could_ believe in the Tooth Fairy – actually _believe_ – just because you choose to? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/130 "2003-08-03T04:45:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stonebow \* > \*\*This statement betrays a profound ignorance of the nature of science- both in its general methodologies as well as in the specific definition of scientific theory. > > I suppose next we are going to be told that creationism is just as valid a theory as evolution. \*\* You are correct. Intelligent design, creation, is just as valid a theory as evolution. There are other theories that also have merit. When the truth is unknown, it is unknown. There is a big difference between science and scientism. Love ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/131 "2003-08-03T04:50:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > **design, creation, is just as valid a theory as evolution.** How are intelligent design and creation testable or falsifiable? If they’re not, then they’re not even theories. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/132 "2003-08-03T04:57:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joe Random \* > \*\*I question your use of the word “know” in this context. Admittedly, he boundry between belief and knowledge is often fuzzy, but still, I’m curious as to where you, personally, draw the line between what you believe and what you know. > > I think it could be better phrased as “people can’t choose to believe any arbitrary thing.” It would be completely impossible for me to believe in, lets say, the Tooth Fairy. Are you saying that you _could_ believe in the Tooth Fairy – actually _believe_ – just because you choose to? \*\* You know something when you experience it, and that’s what happened. I didn’t ask for the experience and I could have denied it. But it was so real I knew it was true. Now if something should happen to shake that truth, then I will have to decide whether or not to keep it. No one said that choosing your beliefs meant people were obligated to choose to believe any arbitrary thing. Why would you come to that conclusion? While we may talk about theists, agnostics, atheists, they are not clones of each other. Each believes in their own way. They choose their beliefs, no one forces them to believe in either school. At least no one in this country (US). Love ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/133 "2003-08-03T05:04:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joe Random \* > \*\*How are intelligent design and creation testable or falsifiable? If they’re not, then they’re not even theories. \*\* Again we run into the tenants of scientism, everything must be measurable by science or it doesn’t exist. Sorry, lots of things exist without science being able to measure them. Take memory for instance, we know it exists. Can’t be measured, can’t be seen, can’t be weighed, can’t even be found. Does a smart person have more than a dumb one? What color is it? Your turn. Love ---
**Author:** ![MrO](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/50afbb/32.png) [@MrO](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrO)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/134 "2003-08-03T05:18:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SparrowHawk \* > \*\*Wow. How did they defend that position? Though I realize, as a student, you weren’t necessarily in a position to demand they do so. I’d be curious as to how they explained that. \*\* There was no defense, in my judgement. Just disagreement. As you suggest, I couldn’t demand much of anything, but we did discuss it at some length. They simply insisted that they were free to choose their beliefs. To me, the _freedom_ to choose was not in contention, but the _ability_ to choose was. They claimed to have the ability to choose to believe literally in, say, Vishnu, but to have chosen not to. I can’t. When I hit them with things like seeing a black cat and choosing to believe it’s white, they came back with things like our senses being unreliable. Agreed, they are, but they’re what we’ve got to work with. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > **But you could have chosen to be agnostic, or just not decided to be anything.** Well, without getting into the argument about the proper definitions of agnostic and atheist, I suppose I am also an agnostic. Lacking knowledge of God, thus being agnostic, I have no belief in God, which makes me an atheist. I didn’t decide to be either one; these words are just labels we use to indicate people who have certain beliefs. I don’t like to call myself either one, really. I prefer to say that I don’t believe in God. I also don’t believe in lots of other things–leprechauns, for instance. But I don’t identify as an aleprechaunist. > [@](#): > > **To say one doesn’t chose their beliefs is to say one is controlled by outside influences at all times and not responsible for any of their actions. Not a tenable position.** The fact that I cannot choose my beliefs does not lead me to the conclusion that I am controlled by outside influences. I would say that I am controlled as much by inside influences. To oversimplify, the evidence around me is outside; my interpretation of it is inside. I am fully responsible for my actions, the more so since I have no god-concept to blame or credit, no savior to redeem me. You say that you didn’t ask for your experience. I assume that you can’t deny your experience without feeling as if you are lying to yourself. I didn’t ask for mine–the experience of finding it far more likely that gods don’t exist than that they do. I cannot deny that without lying to myself. Neither of us is choosing. ---
**Author:** ![mic84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@mic84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mic84)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/135 "2003-08-03T05:40:07Z")
> [@](#): > > Take memory for instance, we know it exists. Can’t be measured, can’t be seen, can’t be weighed, can’t even be found. Does a smart person have more than a dumb one? What color is it? Memory is an abstract concept, so it surely has no color etc. It exists because people have defined a whole lot of different processes in the brain to be known collectively as ‘memory’. If you think that, say, God exists only in the same sense that memory exists, I think you and most skeptics are actually in agreemnt. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/136 "2003-08-03T05:52:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > **You know something when you experience it, and that’s what happened. I didn’t ask for the experience and I could have denied it. But it was so real I knew it was true.** You know that you experienced something, but how do you know that the experience means what you are interpreting it to mean? The experience itself was knowledge. Your interpretation of its meaning is belief. > [@](#): > > **No one said that choosing your beliefs meant people were obligated to choose to believe any arbitrary thing.** I didn’t say “obligated”. If you can’t choose to believe _anything you choose to_, then do you really have a choice? ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/137 "2003-08-03T06:05:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > **Again we run into the tenants of scientism, everything must be measurable by science or it doesn’t exist. Sorry, lots of things exist without science being able to measure them.** Science doesn’t measure things. _People_ measure things. If people can’t measure (i.e. detect in some manner) something, then how can one even begin to claim that it exists? > [@](#): > > **Take memory for instance, we know it exists. Can’t be measured, can’t be seen, can’t be weighed, can’t even be found.** Memories can, indeed, be found. They exist as neuron connections within the human brain. And of _course_ they can’t be seen or weighed; Memories are _information_, not physical objects. > [@](#): > > **Does a smart person have more than a dumb one?** Intelligence and accumulation of memories would not appear to be correlated, so, no, > [@](#): > > **What color is it?** What color are electrons? > [@](#): > > **Your turn.** You haven’t yet explained how creation can be considered a theory when it does not adhere to the definition of what a theory _is_, so your turn hasn’t ended yet. ---
**Author:** ![SparrowHawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac8455/32.png) [@SparrowHawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SparrowHawk)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/138 "2003-08-03T06:11:27Z")
**MrO** , I think I would have wanted to ask your teachers to prove their position by choosing to believe in Vishnu for a week or two and then choose someone or no one else as a follow-up. It would have been pretty pointless as a demonstration, of course, because I can’t fathom such an experience and you can only see what someone’s outward behavior suggests, not what they really believe inside themselves. **lekatt** , how about you _choose_ to believe that your experience was a by-product of your brain chemistry instead of a reflection of an external reality? I, personally, don’t insist that’s what it was, but if you’re not “controlled” by some outside force, you could do that, couldn’t you? And change back if you wanted? As has been pointed out, the conviction of any belief is an inner compulsion, not an outward one. I suppose you can call it a “choice,” since there isn’t any part of you that’s not assenting to the decision, but it doesn’t feel the same as choosing between chocolate truffle or strawberry cheesecake at Baskin-Robbins. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/139 "2003-08-03T07:48:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by X~Slayer(ALE) \* > sounds like wants to believe to me. He asked for guidance. > … > Well, thats true. You cant find out whats its like to believe…but his question was actually “what would it take for him to truly believe.” > … > It would take his willingness to believe, and he has that already. I hate to keep speaking for the OP, but what part of > [@](#): > > I am not trying to make myself believe. I do not necessarily want to believe. I want to learn and explore like I said before. Right now God is equivalent to those little green men you are talking about. I don’t feel bad about not believing in God because there is no God so why would I? didn’t you understand?😉 ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/140 "2003-08-03T13:25:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\*Didn’t Bertrand Russell go from atheism back to Catholicism towards the end of his life? \*\* Russell eventually decided to believe only in those gods that had no believers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179.md?page=8)