# How to make people comply without force **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 12, 2017, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-people-comply-without-force/784323 "2017-04-12T15:39:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-people-comply-without-force/784323/41 "2017-04-13T17:25:34Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Ultimately **Crazy Canuck** has a point. Thanks, that’s totally going in my sig. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > As far as violence, I think it follows a [J-curve](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/15/The-J-Curve_blanksm.jpg) (X axis is the intensity of violence, Y axis is the level of compliance among the people who are on the receiving end of violence). Meaning, a small amount of violence works, a moderate amount of violence backfires, but overwhelming violence works again. I strongly agree with this, well said. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Punishing the group for an individual’s actions is a favorite tool of tyrants, because it does work effectively on captive populations Not just tyrants. The Roman legions used this as a punishment for capital offenses. Take ten soldiers, have them draw straws, and the one who drew the short straw was stoned or clubbed to death by the other nine. This is where the word “decimate” comes from, from the latin for removal of a tenth. Apparently, it was effective. The problem is that now you have a group who hates you instead of a few individuals. I’m not sure if that’s a long-term win most of the time, so it probably will win the battle but lose the war. > [@kunilou](#): > > From a cold, hard perspective, the only alternative to violence as a last result is a wildly disproportionate response (aka, go nuclear.) > > A passenger refuses to get off the plane? Cancel the flight, remove the flight crew, have the ground crew offload all the luggage and cut the power to the plane. Then when the passengers get off, put the Louisville crew on and take off. What if the passenger doesn’t get off? Are you going to wait for him to starve? If you’re not, then you’re in the same position of needing to use force, but now with fewer witnesses. ---
**Author:** ![davida03801](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5e925/32.png) [@davida03801](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davida03801)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-people-comply-without-force/784323/42 "2017-04-13T17:31:42Z")
Simple economics, conduct an auction. Make an announcement that 4 people have to be bumped, then have everyone on the flight indicate the dollar value for them to take another flight. Then pick the lowest bidder. ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-people-comply-without-force/784323/43 "2017-04-13T17:34:38Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I think that would only be the case if you physically touched them. How the hell do you plan on preventing someone from leaving without touching them? Do you plan on shouting “Stop … or I’ll yell stop again!” > [@msmith537](#): > > I don’t have any stats on dog poop and fisticuffs, but that would also be a good way to end up in jail. Anytime you use violence to enforce your will, you’ve found a good way to end up in jail. The police have a monopoly on legally beating up civilians, and they really hate competition. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-people-comply-without-force/784323/44 "2017-04-13T17:43:13Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > That’s called “unlawful restraint” and is a good way for you to become the one who gets arrested. Since the question is about alternatives to using _force_ I assumed we were talking about alternatives used by people who are legally authorized to use force. How could this discussion make sense any other way? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-people-comply-without-force/784323/45 "2017-04-13T17:48:30Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > Since the question is about alternatives to using _force_ I assumed we were talking about alternatives used by people who are legally authorized to use force. How could this discussion make sense any other way? How about your boss? He needs to get people to comply and has no authority to use force. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-people-comply-without-force/784323/46 "2017-04-13T17:49:42Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > From a cold, hard perspective, the only alternative to violence as a last result is a wildly disproportionate response (aka, go nuclear.) > > A passenger refuses to get off the plane? Cancel the flight, remove the flight crew, have the ground crew offload all the luggage and cut the power to the plane. Then when the passengers get off, put the Louisville crew on and take off. No it isn’t! If the passenger refuses to get off the plane, you can in fact fly the plane to its destination _and arrest him there when he gets off_. Force is the solution to the problem of making something happen _right now_. But many many problems don’t actually require that kind of solution. If you define the problem as “a rule breaker temporarily gets his way, once”, then you’re going to end up with disproportionate responses (I would argue that using force to drag a guy out of a plane also counts as “disproportionate”). If you define the problem as “rule breaking becomes the norm and society doesn’t work effectively”, there are _lots_ of possible solutions that don’t require disproportionate responses because they sometimes let rule breakers temporarily get their way. There really are problems that have to be solved right now, but most rule infractions do not. The problem is that our dispute resolution procedures seem to treat all problems as though they were imminent threats. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-people-comply-without-force/784323/47 "2017-04-13T17:56:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Unless more than one seat is needed, Bob agrees to a figure, Carol then agrees to a _higher_ figure…and Bob renegs on his original deal “'Cause she got more than me, so I’m not moving I get the same!”. Now, the airline could just tell Bob to forget about his deal and move on to the next bidder…but it would be silly to think the next bidder will take any less than Carol. BTW, while this is going on your plane has been pushed to the end of the line take-off wise because those other airlines on tight schedules aren’t going to wait for you to get your crap together. You do realize that that is not how auctions work, right? If that was the psychology of even a small fraction of the public, then no auction would ever happen. And keep in mind, we are talking of a flight of at least 70 people, so even if you have the statistically remote chance that 95% of the flight is unreasonable people who do not understand basic logic, strategy or game theory, there will still be enough people who do understand these basic concepts that will accept the auction and the results of the auction, that bob and carol’s ignorance of how the world works will not hold up anything, as those who do understand the most simple ideas will make off with actual money, while the idiots who think they can hold out for vast sums of money keep their seats and dream of vast sums of money. The idiots are not part of this equation. > [@Crazy Canuk](#): > > How the hell do you plan on preventing someone from leaving without touching them? Do you plan on shouting “Stop … or I’ll yell stop again!” I was responding directly to the idea of preventing someone from leaving simply by positioning yourself in front of them, e.g. as noted in this very thread, > [@iamthewalrus(:3=](#): > > if you want someone to not leave, or to do something like clean up after their dog before leaving, simply blocking their path and speaking to them firmly but calmly until they comply is pretty effective, though it takes a while. and I was only responding to the idea that this would be illegal, which I am not sure one way or the other, but I would think that it wouldn’t be, if there is no physical contact. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-people-comply-without-force/784323/48 "2017-04-13T18:00:16Z")
> [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > Ok, I will say it then. Violence is the only universally correct answer. There is a reason that every government everywhere insists that only it’s own agents, whether they be soldiers or police, can use violence lawfully. That reason is because it is super-effective in getting shit done. But the use of violence is rarely needed. It is the theoretical threat of violence that, most of the time, works. As has been pointed out, sometimes that threat of violence can be quite distant indeed. A lot of things might have to happen for, say, a refusal to obey the speed limit must become a use of force - indeed, that could take years to play out if it ever does. The difference between a country you’d want to live in and one people flee is that in the former, force is rarely used; the theory of it is enough. In the latter, it’s too often the first resort. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-people-comply-without-force/784323/49 "2017-04-13T18:01:59Z")
Focus people, focus! The thread is not about passengers on airplanes. It’s about motivation and coercion in general in the context of minor infractions. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-people-comply-without-force/784323/50 "2017-04-13T18:06:45Z")
Oh, to add one more to my list above - [ul] [li]Ignoring[/li][/ul] …'cause, oh never mind… ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-people-comply-without-force/784323/51 "2017-04-13T18:23:15Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > No it isn’t! > > If the passenger refuses to get off the plane, you can in fact fly the plane to its destination _and arrest him there when he gets off_. > > Force is the solution to the problem of making something happen _right now_. But many many problems don’t actually require that kind of solution. > > If you define the problem as “a rule breaker temporarily gets his way, once”, then you’re going to end up with disproportionate responses (I would argue that using force to drag a guy out of a plane also counts as “disproportionate”). If you define the problem as “rule breaking becomes the norm and society doesn’t work effectively”, there are _lots_ of possible solutions that don’t require disproportionate responses because they sometimes let rule breakers temporarily get their way. > > There really are problems that have to be solved right now, but most rule infractions do not. The problem is that our dispute resolution procedures seem to treat all problems as though they were imminent threats. That’s not a terrible idea either. If the law actually puts the airline in the position where they are in the right, and that the passenger is legally required to get off the plane, and refuses, they can say, “Sir, if you refuse, we will not force you to give up your seat, but you need to know that this refusal comes with it a $x fine, along with a potential for x days in jail. A police officer will be waiting at you at our destination to arrest you.” Guy refuses to gt off at that point, flight attendant shrugs and pulls another seat out of the lottery. I am sure that there are those who would very quickly give up their seat, if it avoids being arrested and charged with a crime, even if it doesn’t come with it the immediate threat of force. This is more draconian measure than I would prefer, as I would prefer what I’ve advocated before in that the airline avoids involuntarily removing people from their seat at pretty much all costs, but at least this is not something that will cause these sorts of incidents, and would take very little time. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-people-comply-without-force/784323/52 "2017-04-13T18:27:53Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Focus people, focus! The thread is not about passengers on airplanes. It’s about motivation and coercion in general in the context of minor infractions. Can’t be done that way. Rules, regulations, contracts, space, time constraints, safety-all of these and more factor into what can and/or should be done. I don’t think there are general rules that will work anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-people-comply-without-force/784323/53 "2017-04-13T18:31:03Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > That’s not a terrible idea either. If the law actually puts the airline in the position where they are in the right, and that the passenger is legally required to get off the plane, and refuses, they can say, “Sir, if you refuse, we will not force you to give up your seat, but you need to know that this refusal comes with it a $x fine, along with a potential for x days in jail. A police officer will be waiting at you at our destination to arrest you.” And guy refuses to leave his seat when they arrive until they drop the charges and fees. How can you justify force at one end of the trip and not justify it on the other end? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-people-comply-without-force/784323/54 "2017-04-13T18:39:47Z")
> [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > How the hell do you plan on preventing someone from leaving without touching them? Do you plan on shouting “Stop … or I’ll yell stop again!” We had a guy who kept coming by our house, wanting to discuss fracking. My gf (the homeowner) did not want to talk to him. He repeatedly stopped. I told him never to come again, and talked to the local cops about it. He came by one more time, during a major snowstorm. I came up our private lane and stopped behind him (he was stuck). I ignored him and took my dogs for a walk in the woods, then went into the house. Three hours later, he knocked on the door (he is dog phobic). I told him to call the cops if he had a problem. He did, the local chief of police came out and wrote him up for defiant trespass. I put my Jeep in 4WD and drove around him to put my vehicle in the garage. The cop left. I suggested the guy call a tow truck. He asked to borrow my phone, I declined (his battery had died). His car was gone the next day, no idea how. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-people-comply-without-force/784323/55 "2017-04-13T18:56:54Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And guy refuses to leave his seat when they arrive until they drop the charges and fees. How can you justify force at one end of the trip and not justify it on the other end? How do you get a guy off the plane if he refuses to get off until they give him a pony? You’re reaching into ridiculous territory here, but I’ll bite on your hypothetical. Can you tell me what the difference is between a plane full of passengers waiting to leave to go home or to their destination, and an empty plane sitting on the tarmac with one person on it? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-people-comply-without-force/784323/56 "2017-04-13T19:16:18Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > How do you get a guy off the plane if he refuses to get off until they give him a pony? > > You’re reaching into ridiculous territory here, but I’ll bite on your hypothetical. > > Can you tell me what the difference is between a plane full of passengers waiting to leave to go home or to their destination, and an empty plane sitting on the tarmac with one person on it? You ignored the hypothetical that is a direct result of your “solution”. You’ve told this guy that he will be fined and arrested at the other end of this trip, but you’ve already shown him that he can get what he wants without fear of arrest by staying in his seat so why shouldn’t he believe that can stubborn his way to a solution on the other end? BTW-that plane doesn’t usually just “sit there out on the tarmac” once it arrives. It is usually cleaned, checked, refueled and rush to the gate for another flight. I guess the solution is to tell the passenger that “All is forgiven-Be on your merry way!” Right? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-people-comply-without-force/784323/57 "2017-04-13T19:21:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You ignored the hypothetical that is a direct result of your “solution”. You’ve told this guy that he will be fined and arrested at the other end of this trip, but you’ve already shown him that he can get what he wants without fear of arrest by staying in his seat so why shouldn’t he believe that can stubborn his way to a solution on the other end? BTW-that plane doesn’t usually just “sit there out on the tarmac” once it arrives. It is usually cleaned, checked, refueled and rush to the gate for another flight. I guess the solution is to tell the passenger that “All is forgiven-Be on your merry way!” > Right? I did not ignore the hypothetical, I directly addressed it, in the very same post that you are currently quoting. That would be A solution, but not one that I have advocated for, just one that for some reason, you think is the only possibility. So, you see absolutely no difference in the situation when yo have a can full of people who are all impatient and emotional, and a situation where you just have one guy sitting in a seat, and the only other people are flight crew or law enforcement? If you can’t tell how the two situations are very different, and how the two situations will play out very differently, then I can’t help you any further. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-people-comply-without-force/784323/58 "2017-04-13T20:07:52Z")
Compliance without force is accomplished by using The Force. That is, of course, unless The Force is force - then you’re without recourse. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-people-comply-without-force/784323/59 "2017-04-13T20:18:22Z")
> [@Doctor\_Jackson](#): > > Compliance without force is accomplished by using The Force. That is, of course, unless The Force is force - then you’re without recourse. Force and/or violence is always under every compulsion. The government keeps a monopoly on the use of force, and discourages people who are not authorized agents from employing it, but it is always there, at the bottom of many other layers of obligation and enticement for following the rules. A good measure of how civilized society is, is how many layers of non-force compulsion it can employ before it actually has to resort to violence. Sure, there will come a time when all else fails, and force is needed to force someone to comply, but it should not be resorted to nearly as quickly as many seem to accept. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-people-comply-without-force/784323/60 "2017-04-13T21:31:16Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I did not ignore the hypothetical, I directly addressed it, in the very same post that you are currently quoting. > > That would be A solution, but not one that I have advocated for, just one that for some reason, you think is the only possibility. > > So, you see absolutely no difference in the situation when yo have a can full of people who are all impatient and emotional, and a situation where you just have one guy sitting in a seat, and the only other people are flight crew or law enforcement? If you can’t tell how the two situations are very different, and how the two situations will play out very differently, then I can’t help you any further. So, it’s o.k. to use law enforcement if no passengers are there to witness it? Or is there some other difference between an full plane and a pretty much empty plane with no civilian witnesses that I am missing? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-people-comply-without-force/784323.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-people-comply-without-force/784323.md?page=4)