# How to name your son's son **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 9, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-name-your-sons-son/602429 "2011-11-09T21:08:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-name-your-sons-son/602429/21 "2011-11-09T22:51:38Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > This happened in my family. The son of “Jr.” was “III”. It happened to me - I am the Third. Even though my grandfather is dead. My wife wanted to name our son the IV, but I put my foot down. Too much like founding a Carolingian dynasty. Regards, Shodan, Esq., BS, BYOB, LS/MFT ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-name-your-sons-son/602429/22 "2011-11-09T23:02:17Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > I have no idea where Miss Manners got this ridiculous idea, but I’ve seen it quoted here a number of times. Nobody in the history of human civilization has ever followed this absurd practice. I remember that Kurt Vonnegut stopped using the “Jr” when his father passed away. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-name-your-sons-son/602429/23 "2011-11-09T23:03:59Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > He may be ‘young John’. Or John Boy. G’nite, Mary Ellen. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-name-your-sons-son/602429/24 "2011-11-09T23:18:47Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And don’t worry, **KneadToKnow** , we like looking at boobs. [quote=“Gary “Wombat” Robson, post:13, topic:602429”] Let me take care of that for you… **OFFICIAL MODERATOR ANNOUNCEMENT:** _I changed the title of the thread. **KneadToKnow** ’s comment in post #4 was perfectly logical at the time it was posted. Please do not let that comment affect your opinion of whether **KneadToKnow** looks like a boob._ [/QUOTE] 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-name-your-sons-son/602429/25 "2011-11-09T23:45:11Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > I remember that Kurt Vonnegut stopped using the “Jr” when his father passed away. On the other hand, [Martin Luther King III](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_King_III) is known as such even though his father and grandfather are dead – possibly because they are better known than he is. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-name-your-sons-son/602429/26 "2011-11-09T23:57:35Z")
KneadToKnow must get tired of having to tell people “Hey, stop staring, my OP’s up here.” ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-name-your-sons-son/602429/27 "2011-11-10T00:25:47Z")
On the Miss Manners-style changing of suffixes: If her rules were followed, all the IVs and Vs and most of the IIIs would be minor children or very young adults, so in practice all the toggling on documents would be between Jrs and Srs and the rare III. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-name-your-sons-son/602429/28 "2011-11-10T00:39:21Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > On the other hand, [Martin Luther King III](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_King_III) is known as such even though his father and grandfather are dead – possibly because they are better known than he is. It’s so ingrained that I read that as Martin Luther King Jr III the first time. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-name-your-sons-son/602429/29 "2011-11-10T00:56:31Z")
A colleague of mine was a V, and when he had a son, decided that _he_ wasn’t going to be the one to break a tradition that long, and so named him VI. But they mostly call him by his middle name. In my family, whenever multiples of a name show up, we differentiate them by the relative through whom they’re connected to the rest of the family. ---
**Author:** ![robardin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@robardin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robardin)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-name-your-sons-son/602429/30 "2011-11-10T01:13:16Z")
I went to school with a descendant of [Adam Clayton Powell, Jr.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Clayton_Powell,_Jr.), who has a street named after him in Harlem, NY, styled Adam Clayton Powell IV. But he’s not the Adam Clayton Powell IV who ran for Congress out of Harlem a few years back - there is a [dynastic namespace collision](http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/13/if-your-name-is-powell-take-a-number/) in his family, and my friend is the engineer. ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-name-your-sons-son/602429/31 "2011-11-10T01:54:14Z")
is this correct: the older (or senior) is always the first the younger (junior) is always the second subsequent ones are the nth of that name ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-name-your-sons-son/602429/32 "2011-11-10T03:27:56Z")
> [@TheChileanBlob](#): > > My son is a IV. I’ve read (Miss Manners, maybe?) that it’s only proper to use those subsequent letters if all the people are still alive. In other words, when John Brown Sr. dies, his son becomes JB Sr. and the others move up to Jr. and III. We didn’t do that, though. Also according to the divine Miss M, the suffix Sr. is never used by any living man - The senior holder of the name is always just plain John Brown. The term Sr. is used by his widow when her son John Brown Jr. moves up to just John Brown. What happens if Mrs. John Brown Sr. is still alive when when her son dies and her grandson succeeds to the title is not specified. Do we then have two Mrs. Srs? ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-name-your-sons-son/602429/33 "2011-11-10T04:14:18Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > I remember that Kurt Vonnegut stopped using the “Jr” when his father passed away. My father did that too. At least he dropped it at one point; not sure if it was when his father died or when he moved away from California. How about John Brown II? I always assumed that was someone named after his grandfather and thus not a Jr. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-name-your-sons-son/602429/34 "2011-11-10T04:57:20Z")
Judith Martin needs to take a remedial course in ordinal numerals. A son receiving his father’s precise name is “Father’s Full Name, Jr.” Any change to this, as in a different middle name, constitutes a new name. The old custom, before citing middle names in everyday formal reportage became common, was to refer to the elder as "Fathers Name _pere_ and the younger “Fathers Name _fils_”, borrowed from the French of course. This would, for example, be the way the 41st and 43rd Presidents were distinguihed from each other. Beginning with the third generation, Roman (ordinal) numerals of III, IV, etc. are used. The Roman II is used to identify a younger person named after an older family member not his father, usually but not always the grandfather. So John Adams (2nd President) has a son John Quincy Adams (6th President) – note no Junior or Roman ordinal – who had a son Charles Francis Adams Sr., a Civil War general and ambassador. He in turn had children including Charles Francis Adams Jr. (son bearing same name, President of Union Pacific RR) and John Quincy Adams II (named after grandfather, and hence getting the II ). After CFA Jr. had fathered only daughters to date, his brother JQA II named his son Charles Francis Adams III, in honor of his father and brother. CFA III had a son CFA IV, who founded Raytheon Corp. and died only in 1999. To the best of my knowledge he was the last celebrated Adams, but over 200 years is worth noting. Likewise John Marshall Harlan, the late-1800s Supreme Court justice famed for his dissent in Plessy v. Ferguson, had a son Jphn Michael Harlan, of only local prominence. He in turn had a son whom he named John Marshall Harlan II after his own father, the baby’s grandfather, who also went on to become a Supreme Court justice. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-name-your-sons-son/602429/35 "2011-11-10T09:08:44Z")
As Gail Collins (NYT columnist) has noted several times over the years, Rep. Connie Mack of Florida is really Cornelius Harvey McGillicuddy IV. According to the separate wiki articles on C. M. I, III, and IV, they all had different middle names: C. M. I (no middle name) C. M. II (no wiki article that I can see) C. M. III middle name Alexander C. M. IV middle name Harvey ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-name-your-sons-son/602429/36 "2011-11-11T02:59:33Z")
Si is it true that Malcom X had nine similarly named forebears? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-name-your-sons-son/602429/37 "2011-11-11T03:57:49Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Si is it true that Malcom X had nine similarly named forebears? Sure, Malcolm III Canmore was friends with XLVI Ullmann, the actress’s great-great-great-grandmother. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-name-your-sons-son/602429/38 "2011-11-11T04:30:46Z")
> [@mac\_bolan00](#): > > is this correct: > the older (or senior) is always the first > the younger (junior) is always the second > subsequent ones are the nth of that name Not always. I have seen “the 2nd” to refer to someone with the same name who is not a junior, i.e. a generation was skipped. Like John Smith had a son named Fred Smith who had a son named John Smith II and his son was named John Smith III. It’s very common in royalty, but not completely unheard of for common folks too. ---
**Author:** ![ataraxy22](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ataraxy22/32/307_2.png) [@ataraxy22](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ataraxy22)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-name-your-sons-son/602429/39 "2011-11-11T05:40:46Z")
John Brown Jr the Second ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-name-your-sons-son/602429/40 "2011-11-11T06:38:39Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Si is it true that Malcom X had nine similarly named forebears? Right – and Franklin D Roosevelt was at the end of a line of 499 ancestors. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-name-your-sons-son/602429.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-name-your-sons-son/602429.md?page=3)