# How to pronounce Principia? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 9, 2013, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-pronounce-principia/673513 "2013-11-09T16:21:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-pronounce-principia/673513/41 "2013-11-11T15:24:49Z")
^ Although I admit, that appears to be a bit of an anomaly. (And this wasn’t in high school Latin class or anything like that. Perhaps our history teacher–or whatever class he came up in–was a Latin scholar.) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-pronounce-principia/673513/42 "2013-11-11T15:28:57Z")
“Prinkipia” has a claim to correctness, in that that’s how it would be pronounced in the original language. “Princhipia” also has a claim to correctness, in that that’s how it would be pronounced by the original author. “Prinsipia” has neither. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-pronounce-principia/673513/43 "2013-11-11T15:57:53Z")
On the contrary, while the other two pronunciations are correct from historical viewpoints, prinsipia has the honor of being the correct pronunciation given modern english phonetic standards. Since we speak modern english, that’s all the authority required. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-pronounce-principia/673513/44 "2013-11-11T16:01:14Z")
I’ve always been annoyed that the Celtics who dominated Western Europe before Rome and the Boston basketball team were pronounced differently; I thought one should change its name. However, I just learned that the K-sound in English ‘Celtic’ is a recent affectation. Or perhaps an embarrassed response to the 19th-century complaints of Celtic speakers who wrote in [_The Celt_ of 1857](http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Tb8RAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA288#v=onepage&q&f=false): > [@](#): > > "Of all the nations that have hitherto lived on the face of the earth, the English have the worst mode of pronouncing learned languages. This is admitted by the whole human race [excepting the English, since by] their own account they are the most amiable, polished, and educated people on earth, and because (if we may credit the same authority). the Germans, Spaniards, and Italians, are little better than savages. But I cannot agree with them. For instance ;–the English term the great Orator of Rome “_sissero_,” this was certainly not his name. His very mother would not know the most eloquent of men by this appellation. The English gruffly chuckle over the supposed superiority of their name to that of the Italians who call the Orator _Tchitchero_, and they laugh a long loud horse laugh at the Germans who pronounce the name _Kickero_. Yet Kickero is the true name. The great Orator termed himself Kickero, and Kickero accordingly he must or ought to be named. But the genius of the English language clashes with this true pronunciation. This poor meagre sordid language resembles nothing so much as the hissing of serpents or geese. An English-man cannot open his mouth without uttering a hiss. This is to show his benevolence, I suppose… If we follow the unwritten law of the English we shall pronounce (Celt) Selt but Caesar would pronounce it, Kaylt. The Greeks called us Koltoi. The Latins Kolta or more probably Kayltae. Thus the reader may take which pronunciation he pleases. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-pronounce-principia/673513/45 "2013-11-11T16:02:04Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Actually, in high school we did pronounce it “Kikero.” The street we pronounced Sisseroh, though. Maybe we can move on to Seltic vs Keltic now. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-pronounce-principia/673513/46 "2013-11-11T16:24:24Z")
I though it was pronounced “prinbipia”. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-pronounce-principia/673513/47 "2013-11-11T16:32:12Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Maybe we can move on to Seltic vs Keltic now. 😃 This one is easy—the ethnonym was not borne by most of the people now identified as such. The Keltoi / Celti were definitely /k/ to Caesar, so it follows that the same rules apply as for Newton’s work: historical K, CH as the Italians pronounce it, or S as the French pronounce it. Academics tend toward K, but none of the pronunciations are wrong and none of them would have meant a thing to the ancient Irish or Welsh, so take your pick. But don’t call them “Celtics”—that makes it looks as if you can’t distinguish an adjective (Celtic) from a noun (Celt). ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-pronounce-principia/673513/48 "2013-11-11T19:37:48Z")
I am of the opinion that pronouncing the people as “sell-tic” or “selt” is the mark of someone who doesn’t know what they’re talking about. But it’s not just a case of Bostonians several generations removed from the Celtic homeland mangling it. The real Scottish and Irish ancestry folks in Glasgow have their association football team called “sell-tic FC.” Which ultimately, both teams want to sell lots of tickets (groan). ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-pronounce-principia/673513/49 "2013-11-12T01:21:42Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > On the contrary, while the other two pronunciations are correct from historical viewpoints, prinsipia has the honor of being the correct pronunciation given modern english phonetic standards. Since we speak modern english, that’s all the authority required. But it’s not an English word. If you wouldn’t pronounce the title of _À la Recherche du Temps Perdu_ as though it were made up of English words, why would you pronounce the title of \*Principia Mathematica[.i] as though it were made up of English words? “Prinkipia” and “princhipia” were both standard pronunciations used by Latin speakers at different times. As far as I’m concerned, you can take your pick, though “princhipia” was the standard pronunciation at the time this particular work was composed. “Prinsipia” is an anglicisation, and I think you’ll struggle a bit to justify anglicised the title of this book but not of others. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-pronounce-principia/673513/50 "2013-11-12T02:08:43Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > But it’s not an English word. Anything can be an English word. By what authority do you claim it isn’t? The “correct” pronunciation of a word is one that 1) people use and 2) does not hinder communication. I can’t imagine anyone not know what I was talking about if I said: Newton’s Prinsipia Mathematica. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-pronounce-principia/673513/51 "2013-11-12T02:09:29Z")
That’s a big if. I, personally, have no problems with a la rechurch due temps purdue. If that gives francophones a heart attack, not really my problem. Or I might say, Remembrance of Things Past since that title is as or more obvious to an english speaking audience as the french version and my default is to assume my audience speaks english. You are more than free to prefer one pronunciation over another but when it comes to english pronunciations, all three are as acceptable as the others. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-pronounce-principia/673513/52 "2013-11-12T02:30:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Anything can be an English word. By what authority do you claim it isn’t? It’s the title of a book. The book was written in Latin, and the full title is _Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica_. That’s Latin, not English, just like _À la recherche du temps perdu_ is French, not English. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > The “correct” pronunciation of a word is one that 1) people use and 2) does not hinder communication. I can’t imagine anyone not know what I was talking about if I said: Newton’s Prinsipia Mathematica. I take your point. But there’s a bit more to “does not hinder communication” than simply being capable of comprehension. I have a friend who pronounces the word “sabotage” as “saBOATadge”. It’s comprehensible, but everyone who hears him does a double-take and says “what?” to themselves before, a second later, they realise what he’s saying. And I’d regard that internal double-take as a distraction, and hindrance to communication, even if it doesn’t ultimately prevent comprehension. Right. I’m not saying that I’d have the same reaction to “Prinsipia” as I would to “saboatadge”, but I would do a small double-take. I can tell at a glance that this is not an English word, and anyone using it as an abbreviated form of “Principia Mathematica” presumably knows that it isn’t. It isn’t conventional, in my variety of English, to assign English orthographic values to words in other languages; hence I would find it distracting. But my take on this is no more normative than yours. From the evidence of this thread many people would have no such reaction at all. All I’m suggesting is that anglicising the pronunciation of non-English words and names (especially names) is more of a US English thing, and my hunch is that US English speakers will be disproportionately represented among those who use, or accept without hesitation, the “prinsipia” pronunciation. I don’t think you can explain this on the basis that _Principia_ is an English word; I’m pretty sure that most people who speak of this book know perfectly well that _Principia_ is not an English word. But you can certainly explain it it on the basis that you’re a speaker of US English, and that anglicising the pronunciation of foreign names is a convention of US English. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-pronounce-principia/673513/53 "2013-11-12T03:09:55Z")
Right, which is why the British name for Greece is Hellas. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-pronounce-principia/673513/54 "2013-11-12T03:21:08Z")
My reasoning for preferring “prinsipia” is simple. I’d never heard it pronounced before until I’d happened upon the title from my own self-education (having no greater than a HS degree). To my US English reading eyes, it looks as if it’s pronounced “prinsipia”. Out of my own ignorance I suppose you could say that I’m pronouncing it incorrectly, but I’ll be damned if you could really blame me or anyone coming from a similar standpoint. That pronunciation is entirely consistent with English phonetics. Hell, even I, myself, pronounce my own last name incorrectly according to the native toung (containing a double-z, like in pizza. However, most my Americanized family pronounces it like the “zee” sound in “easy”, simply because the vowel construction makes it _look_ like that’s how it should be pronounced). Words get anglicized all the time to sound and read in likewise consistent ways. Why not “principia”? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-pronounce-principia/673513/55 "2013-11-12T03:28:29Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Right, which is why the British name for Greece is Hellas. You make my point very neatly for me, Inner Stickler. “Greece” is an English word; it’s the name the English give to the country that lies just across the Aegean see from Turkey. It’s a perfectly respectable English word, pronounced according to English conventions. It’s not, so far as I know, found in any other language. “Hellas” is not an English word. It’s a Greek word, transliterated into Latin characters. When speaking English, we don’t normally use the word “Hellas”, because the perfectly good English word “Greece” already exists. _Principium_ is a Latin word, meaning principle, in the sense of fundamental truth. We tend not to use it when speaking English because the perfectly good English word “principle” exists. If we do have occasion to use it when speaking English then, inevitably, we are rather pointedly _not_ using the English word “principle”, and there is a reason for this - in this particular instance, because it’s part of the title of a Latin work, written and titled in Latin. It’s fine to pronounce it according to English orthographical conventions if, in your particular variety of English, that’s a standard way of treating non-English words. What’s not fine is asserting that it is to be pronounced this way _because it is an English word_. That’s factually incorrect; it’s not an English word. And it also implies that pronouncing “Principia” according to classical Latin conventions, or vulgar Latin conventions, would be wrong, because why would you pronounce an English word as though it were Latin? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-pronounce-principia/673513/56 "2013-11-12T03:43:52Z")
If you really want to use English to refer to Newton’s work, you could just say “Mathematical Principles”. That way you don’t have to worry about any other language’s pronunciation rules. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-pronounce-principia/673513/57 "2013-11-12T03:49:13Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > It’s fine to pronounce it according to English orthographical conventions if, in your particular variety of English, that’s a standard way of treating non-English words. What’s not fine is asserting that it is to be pronounced this way _because it is an English word_. That’s factually incorrect; it’s not an English word. And it also implies that pronouncing “Principia” according to classical Latin conventions, or vulgar Latin conventions, would be wrong, because why would you pronounce an English word as though it were Latin? I can accept this argument when people use it to say the word should be pronounced prinkipia. It’s the princhipia argument I find weak. To paraphrase your own question, why would you pronounce a Latin word as though it was Italian? ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-pronounce-principia/673513/58 "2013-11-12T04:00:23Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > If you really want to use English to refer to Newton’s work, you could just say “Mathematical Principles”. That way you don’t have to worry about any other language’s pronunciation rules. This would be presuming one could translate the Latin. I realize the entire book is written in Latin, but it’s such a seminal work, many come across the title alone and would understandably assume it’s pronounced “prinsipia”. I’ve had other similar problems when coming across other foreign words or names on my own, whether in titles or in general (e.g. Schrödinger: “shro-ding-er” or “shro-dinjer”) ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-pronounce-principia/673513/59 "2013-11-12T04:11:58Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > It’s fine to pronounce it according to English orthographical conventions if, in your particular variety of English, that’s a standard way of treating non-English words. What’s not fine is asserting that it is to be pronounced this way _because it is an English word_. That’s factually incorrect; it’s not an English word. And it also implies that pronouncing “Principia” according to classical Latin conventions, or vulgar Latin conventions, would be wrong, because why would you pronounce an English word as though it were Latin? Excuse you, I don’t give a shit if you want to say prinkipia, princhipia, prinsipia or throatwarbler mangrove. What I care about is people arbitrarily assigning value judgments to equivalent pronunciations of something. And what I was attempting to point out, although apparently not as well as I thought, was that anglicization is very much not limited to SAE and if you think so, that’s really telling. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-pronounce-principia/673513/60 "2013-11-12T04:12:46Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I can accept this argument when people use it to say the word should be pronounced prinkipia. It’s the princhipia argument I find weak. To paraphrase your own question, why would you pronounce a Latin word as though it was Italian? You’re assigning a normative value to classical Latin pronunciation, which is a bit like assigning a normative value to Chaucerian English pronunciation. Long before Italian emerged as a distinct language, Latin had developed the -ch- value for ‘c’ before ‘i’ or ‘e’. It’s a feature of Italian, of ecclesiastical Latin and of the academic lingua franca Latin employed by Newton because it was a feature of the Late Latin from which they all emerged. It’s an authentic Latin pronunciation, developed by native Latin speakers at a time when Latin was a living language. It’s not the pronunciation that was employed in classical Rome, but given that the work concerned does not emanate from the classical period, there is no reason why we have to pronounce its name as though it did. In short, to use “princhipia” is not to pronounce the word as though it were Italian. It’s to pronounce the word as though it were Latin, albeit not classical Latin. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-pronounce-principia/673513.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-pronounce-principia/673513.md?page=4)