# How to reduce rape by half? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 7, 2017, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943 "2017-11-07T03:50:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/1 "2017-11-07T03:50:05Z")
This university program has been studied and apparently has been very successful: > **[Credible, actionable evidence from Sexual Assault Resistance Program](https://www.straighttalkonevidence.org/2017/10/23/credible-actionable-evidence-on-how-to-prevent-sexual-assault-on-university-campuses/)** > > Results of a randomized controlled trial (RCT) of a sexual assault resistance program for first-year female university students. Evidence based programs. > [@](#): > > We highlight recent results of a randomized controlled trial (RCT) of a sexual assault resistance program for first-year female university The RCT found that the program nearly halved the incidence of rape over a 12-month period, from 9.8 percent for the control group to 5.2 percent for the treatment group (statistically significant, p=0.02). > > We believe these findings are unusually credible because (i) the study was a well-executed RCT; (ii) it included a diverse student sample across three Canadian universities of different sizes and characteristics, suggesting the findings may generalize to many other university campuses; and (iii) it found a sizable effect on an ultimate outcome of clear policy importance—incidence of rape—and not just “surrogate” outcomes such as women’s knowledge of resistance strategies. > > . That sounds like a pretty successful program, and it sounds to me like it does pretty obvious things. Thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/2 "2017-11-07T04:07:43Z")
My thought: It would be a kindness to those reading your post and thread if you took a minute to outline the “pretty obvious things”. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/3 "2017-11-07T04:15:50Z")
Please excuse my inconsiderateness.🙂 > [@](#): > > The program consists of four sessions of three hours each that give participants information and skills on how to assess the risk posed by acquaintances and how to use verbal and physical self-defense techniques. The sessions teach how to develop problem-solving strategies to reduce the advantages of the perpetrator, to assess danger in situations and to overcome emotional barriers to resisting sexual aggression. Participants practise resisting verbal coercion and get self-defense training that focuses on acquaintances rather than strangers. > **[Sexual assault resistance program reduces rapes — University Affairs](https://universityaffairs.ca/news/news-article/sexual-assault-resistance-program-reduces-rapes/)** > > U of Windsor initiative reduced rape by almost 50 percent. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/4 "2017-11-07T04:34:48Z")
I’m WAY more concerned that 5-10% of female Canadian students are getting raped in a 12-month period. WTF is going on up there?!? ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/5 "2017-11-07T04:41:22Z")
Only rape every other day? ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/6 "2017-11-07T05:04:38Z")
My thought on this is: is there a parallel program for college men, to teach them how to not rape women? That might have equally dramatic results. My point, if it is not obvious, is why is it that only women have the burden of changing and adapting their behavior to prevent rapes? Women shouldn’t drink, women shouldn’t put themselves in awkward or dangerous or potentially intimate situations, women should learn to use their knees to good effect. When is it the men’s turn to learn something? ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/7 "2017-11-07T05:24:10Z")
[This article](http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsa1411131#t=article) from the New England Journal of Medicine does a more thorough job of analyzing the results. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/8 "2017-11-07T05:30:11Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > My thought on this is: is there a parallel program for college men, to teach them how to not rape women? That might have equally dramatic results. My point, if it is not obvious, is why is it that only women have the burden of changing and adapting their behavior to prevent rapes? Women shouldn’t drink, women shouldn’t put themselves in awkward or dangerous or potentially intimate situations, women should learn to use their knees to good effect. When is it the men’s turn to learn something? I think this would be a good idea. I think there are some cases where a man will commit a sex crime because he honestly isn’t aware of how wrong his actions are. A man might think something like, _“This isn’t rape. Rape is when you’re holding a knife to her throat and threatening to kill her.”_ or _“This isn’t rape. Rape is sex and I just grabbed her ass.”_ or _“This isn’t rape. She’d have said yes if she hadn’t drank so much.”_ or _“This isn’t rape. She’s free to say no and walk out of here if she decides she doesn’t want the job that bad.”_ In every case, a man will imagine something worse than what he’s doing and decide as long as he stays on one side of the line he’s drawn in his head, he’s okay. Some men need to be told that there are a lot of things that are wrong even if they don’t fit every definition of rape. These men need to learn that sexual assault and sexual harassment are wrong (and going beyond being wrong, they’re also crimes). ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/9 "2017-11-07T05:31:30Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > My thought on this is: is there a parallel program for college men, to teach them how to not rape women? That might have equally dramatic results. My point, if it is not obvious, is why is it that only women have the burden of changing and adapting their behavior to prevent rapes? Women shouldn’t drink, women shouldn’t put themselves in awkward or dangerous or potentially intimate situations, women should learn to use their knees to good effect. When is it the men’s turn to learn something? Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Programs that teach women how not to be a particular rapist’s victim do not mean that _someone_ was not his victim that evening. In fact, if there is a program that is so good in picking out rapists before they rape, why not teach it to law enforcement? “Why am I in jail?” “You have been identified as a pre-rapist.” Seriously, where are all the “Don’t be a rapist” programs for men? I’m here to tell you that I have been getting advice since I was 12 (I’m 50) on how to avoid rape. The specific advice has changed, but not the fact that I have gotten it. It’s been in Dear Abby columns, Very Special episodes of TV shows, self-defense classes my father signed me up for, filmstrips in gym classes, free lectures at my college, workshops at women’s music festivals, presentations by the Sisterhood at my synagogue, classes the Y offered free to the community, and on, and on. When bookstores we’re a bigger thing, there were whole sections on self-defense for women: how to books, inspirational stories of those who fought back and won, and books on how to bulk up, so the rapist would take one look at you and go on to the next woman. I have never heard or seen any lecture or presentation of any kind directed at men, not even one on how to talk to a guy you know who was planning on doing something skeevy, or how to report someone you suspected of being in possession of GHB with intent, let alone what we really need, which is HOW NOT TO RAPE. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/10 "2017-11-07T05:38:58Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > My thought on this is: is there a parallel program for college men, to teach them how to not rape women? That might have equally dramatic results. My point, if it is not obvious, is why is it that only women have the burden of changing and adapting their behavior to prevent rapes? Women shouldn’t drink, women shouldn’t put themselves in awkward or dangerous or potentially intimate situations, women should learn to use their knees to good effect. When is it the men’s turn to learn something? This was my thought as well. Don’t get me wrong, I think teaching women self defense and situational awareness is a worthwhile endeavor, but for the love of Pete, how about we sit these young men down and at least go through some discussion about limits. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/11 "2017-11-07T05:49:29Z")
There have been such programs, they just haven’t been as successful. For the simple reason that most men do it with malicious intent. You can’t teach bad people not to be bad. You can teach people to protect themselves though. This is abour rape. Almost every man has been guilty of not respecting boundaries. That’s where education can help. But this study measures “completed rape”, which is a very specific category of sexual assault that involves doing something almost every man knows is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/12 "2017-11-07T06:08:15Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > There have been such programs, they just haven’t been as successful. For the simple reason that most men do it with malicious intent. You can’t teach bad people not to be bad. You can teach people to protect themselves though. > > This is abour rape. Almost every man has been guilty of not respecting boundaries. That’s where education can help. But this study measures “completed rape”, which is a very specific category of sexual assault that involves doing something almost every man knows is wrong. You are misinformed. A very large percentage of rapists do not identify what they did as rape, even when they are in jail for it. Of those who do, they mostly do to not think of it as “wrong”, at least in their specific case. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/13 "2017-11-07T06:14:14Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > This was my thought as well. Don’t get me wrong, I think teaching women self defense and situational awareness is a worthwhile endeavor, but for the love of Pete, how about we sit these young men down and at least go through some discussion about limits. That doesn’t sound much more effective than sitting lions down and discussing not eating zebras. Theres something fishy about the numbers. Reading the program, I don’t see any real reason for the number of attempted rapes to be so drastically lower. My guess is either they got lucky or something else is going on. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/14 "2017-11-07T06:18:39Z")
That’s rationalization though. Education may reach a tiny percentage of them, but you won’t get a 50% reduction that way. It’s not just rape, ALL crime is reduced primarily by people protecting themselves and their possessions. We lock our doors, we avoid dark alleys. It’s just easier and more effective to teach people how to reduce their likelihood of becoming a victim than to teach evil and crazy people to be less evil and crazy. We don’t teach identity thieves how to not steal people’s identities, we teach people how to avoid identity theft. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/15 "2017-11-07T06:22:10Z")
> [@treis](#): > > That doesn’t sound much more effective than sitting lions down and discussing not eating zebras. > > Theres something fishy about the numbers. Reading the program, I don’t see any real reason for the number of attempted rapes to be so drastically lower. My guess is either they got lucky or something else is going on. Given what they are talking about, it sounds like they are basically making the prey look bigger and tougher so that the predators don’t consider them prey. It focuses on warding off acquaintances rather than fighting off strangers who are willing to beat you to death if you resist. Most frat boys aren’t looking for a fight, they are looking for easy prey who will lay there and take it. Part of their program is simply being crystal clear about saying “no”, which seems like a small thing, but once you do that, you’ve eliminated any doubt about what the guy is doing. He knows he’s a rapist once he’s clearly understood you don’t want this. That’s just my hypothesis, but assuming the numbers are right, that could be what’s going on. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/16 "2017-11-07T07:13:58Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > My thought on this is: is there a parallel program for college men, to teach them how to not rape women? Bit late, by then. Education about what constitutes respect for each other, bullying, consent, and related aspects of relationships needs to start much younger, from the moment children enter school, even if it doesn’t extend to the specifically sexual until around puberty. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/17 "2017-11-07T10:11:06Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That’s rationalization though. Education may reach a tiny percentage of them, but you won’t get a 50% reduction that way. > > It’s not just rape, ALL crime is reduced primarily by people protecting themselves and their possessions. We lock our doors, we avoid dark alleys. It’s just easier and more effective to teach people how to reduce their likelihood of becoming a victim than to teach evil and crazy people to be less evil and crazy. We don’t teach identity thieves how to not steal people’s identities, we teach people how to avoid identity theft. A cite that this is true? Residential doors locks do nothing to prevent anything but a opportunistic thief, and in fact I have learned the hard way that it is trivial to just kick in even a metal door. I think if the education efforts were about avoiding blaming the victims I would be more inclined to be open to the efforts, but this seems like “don’t show any ankle” type of program. How about reducing the social stigma for the victims of sexual violence, how about publicly shaming the perpetrators and not their prey? I have been directly involved as a juror on a child sex trafficking case, and while I cannot talk about the details the pure shame of rape etc… is a very common way that women are forced into prostitution. It doesn’t mean that education can’t be useful, but this seems to be just another slut-shaming, live in fear type solution. Also note, looking at later critical reviews of this study, it was not perfect. Dosage 30 hours of training time, the study was not blind, participants were less likely to report rapes, did nothing to help prevent the more common incapacitated rape in colleges etc… I am glad that people are working on these problems, in as scientific as ethically possible way, but I think that this is a bright spot looking at future efforts than a practical solution. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/18 "2017-11-07T10:17:11Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > You are misinformed. A very large percentage of rapists do not identify what they did as rape, even when they are in jail for it. Of those who do, they mostly do to not think of it as “wrong”, at least in their specific case. Starting with the ones who believe that “no” means “I’m being coy”. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/19 "2017-11-07T10:20:19Z")
Are college aged men going to sign up for a “How NOT To Be a Rapist” class? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/20 "2017-11-07T10:23:39Z")
College aged graduate students do sign up for “Ethics in Research” classes. They happen to be required and ungraded. Make “crime prevention” a requirement for all freshmen, include not only rape but other kinds of crimes that student-age people are prone to commit or to be victims of. After all, it’s not as if all assholes are male or all assault victims are female. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943.md?page=2)