# How to reduce rape by half? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 7, 2017, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943 "2017-11-07T03:50:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/61 "2017-11-07T17:04:11Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > The study also reported “attempted rapes” under a separate category, so I think the 9.8% is actual rapes, not unwanted touches. So is Canada just especially rape-y? Or do we think a similar number would be found at American colleges? And why is the FBI not seeing that? For example, the NCES reports that in the fall of 2015 there were 9.5 million female undergrad students in the USA. I don’t know how many were freshmen, but let’s guesstimate 2.4 million. If 10% of them got raped, we should expect 240,000 rapes, just from this subset of the population. Instead, the FBI’s UCR found 90,000-124,000, depending on which definition is used (nationally, not just female college freshmen). Something is way out of whack here. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/62 "2017-11-07T17:07:09Z")
Maybe what college campuses really could use, in order to raise awareness about sexual assault, is something like an educational campaign of pickpocketing. Undercover participants would take some money or plastic from men’s wallets whenever they had a chance, either surreptitiously or forcibly (recording the amount/item and the victim’s name for restitution at the end of the month or year, say, since this is just an educational campaign rather than deliberate theft). And then whenever a guy complained he’d been robbed, he’d get the typical barrage of questions: - “Were you not being alert about the possibility that somebody might try to rob you?” “Were you wearing a type of clothing that made you look easy to pickpocket or otherwise drew the robber’s attention to you?” “Were you being financially generous or careless in a way that might have caused somebody to believe that you wanted them to have your money?” “Have you ever lent somebody your ID before? Do you have the reputation of somebody who is willing to share their ID?” “Were you walking alone somewhere with a high incidence of pickpocketing/robbery, or after dark when pickpockets and robbers are more likely to operate?” “Did you get drunk and fail to exercise due caution in looking after your wallet?” “Why didn’t you leave your valuables under lock and key in a secure place, carrying only the bare minimum of items you might need securely attached to your body?” “Why did you choose to engage in this activity when you knew it carried an increased risk of being robbed or pickpocketed?” \* Maybe that kind of experience would give men some idea of what it’s like to have to deal with the expectations placed on women to undertake the responsibility of not letting other people rape and sexually assault them. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/63 "2017-11-07T17:09:16Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Personally, I’m skeptical of the 9.8% statistic, but if it’s accurate, even within an order of magnitude, I’d strongly discourage my daughter from going to a co-ed college. Maybe direct her to a women’s college, or a monastery. I don’t know yet, but somewhere that doesn’t involve a 1/10 chance of rape. I believe the risk of being raped is lower for women in college than for women of the same age who don’t go to college. No doubt for a lot of reasons - lower income women are at higher risk of rape, as well as less likely to go to college. No idea of the risk at a women’s college, but I suspect it is not much lower. Alcohol use (by perpetrator and by the victim) is more of a risk factor, so the phenomenon of the inexperienced freshman getting shit-faced and then either attacking someone or being attacked might account for the fact that the study in the OP seemed to affect risk the first year of college only. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/64 "2017-11-07T17:10:52Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > So is Canada just especially rape-y? Or do we think a similar number would be found at American colleges? And why is the FBI not seeing that? > > For example, the NCES reports that in the fall of 2015 there were 9.5 million female undergrad students in the USA. I don’t know how many were freshmen, but let’s guesstimate 2.4 million. If 10% of them got raped, we should expect 240,000 rapes, just from this subset of the population. Instead, the FBI’s UCR found 90,000-124,000, depending on which definition is used (nationally, not just female college freshmen). Something is way out of whack here. This wasn’t a law enforcement study. Look at basically any similar study at US campuses and you’ll find similar numbers. I imagine you’re aware of that. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/65 "2017-11-07T17:11:53Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Instead, the FBI’s UCR found 90,000-124,000, depending on which definition is used. Something is way out of whack here. I believe the UCR statistics are **reported** cases. We know for a fact that rape is extraordinarily underreported. This is an [acknowledged problem](https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/bjs_amrsa_poster.pdf). ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/66 "2017-11-07T17:40:36Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > So is Canada just especially rape-y? Or do we think a similar number would be found at American colleges? And why is the FBI not seeing that? > > For example, the NCES reports that in the fall of 2015 there were 9.5 million female undergrad students in the USA. I don’t know how many were freshmen, but let’s guesstimate 2.4 million. If 10% of them got raped, we should expect 240,000 rapes, just from this subset of the population. Instead, the FBI’s UCR found 90,000-124,000, depending on which definition is used (nationally, not just female college freshmen). Something is way out of whack here. I have been told on these boards that it is unfair to report a sexual assault if there is no evidence because that might blacken a man’s name and “innocent until proven guilty”. If you were sexually assaulted and you were completely positive nothing would be done because it was not provable, would you report it? Would you go through the rape kit collection, knowing no one would ever even look at it? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/67 "2017-11-07T17:41:39Z")
This didn’t post, earlier: > [@adaher](#): > > You bring up a great point about the risk of rape from just walking around being low. Very true. The vast majority of rapes are someone the victim knows. Stranger danger is just not a thing except in the most crime ridden of neighborhoods. It’s not as unlikely as getting struck by lightning, but it’s a good way of thinking about it. The odds of anyone getting randomly attacked in a safe suburb are something like 1 in 100,000. But this isn’t about what you personally would do. This is about institutions–led largely by men–advising women to significantly curtail their lives “just in case” it will increase the chance of rape. So there’s no evidence yoga pants drive men to rape, but just in case you should change your clothes before you walk to your car. Just in case, you shouldn’t go to the gym if no one will go with you and it will be dark when you leave. Just in case you shouldn’t work alone with a man you don’t know well. Institutions telling women to err on the side of “just in case” force women to think that functioning in the world is risky, that they have to chose between personal safety or professional and personal success. I think that’s horrifically oppressive, and all “anti-rape education programs” need to be very careful to avoid this sort of thing. Do you disagree? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/68 "2017-11-07T17:43:12Z")
_“Do you have any way of proving how much cash was in your wallet? Is there any evidence that you were ever robbed at all?”_ _“Are you sure you weren’t just feeling generous and gave away the money, and are now claiming robbery because you regret your generosity and would like to get the money back?”_ ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/69 "2017-11-07T17:50:08Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > But this isn’t about what you personally would do. This is about institutions–led largely by men–advising women to significantly curtail their lives “just in case” it will increase the chance of rape. So there’s no evidence yoga pants drive men to rape, but just in case you should change your clothes before you walk to your car. Just in case, you shouldn’t go to the gym if no one will go with you and it will be dark when you leave. Just in case you shouldn’t work alone with a man you don’t know well. I agree that yoga pants don’t drive men to rape, but they do make the woman more noticeable. And just like anything that makes you more noticeable, you’re more likely to be noticed by bad people. That could be the same thing for looking very rich. If a bad person is looking for someone to attack, they are going to notice the more noticeable people. It would be more risky for someone obviously rich to walk through a darkened parking lot while totally engrossed in their phone. The point is to realize that the world has bad people and that the choices you make may make you more likely to be a victim. That doesn’t mean you’re asking to be attacked, but you should take reasonable precautions for the environment you’re in. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/70 "2017-11-07T18:05:41Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > It would be more risky for someone obviously rich to walk through a darkened parking lot while totally engrossed in their phone. The point is to realize that the world has bad people and that the choices you make may make you more likely to be a victim. That doesn’t mean you’re asking to be attacked, but you should take reasonable precautions for the environment you’re in. Shorter and weaker people are also more likely to be attacked, as they look like comparatively easy prey. Men who aren’t tall should take reasonable precautions in environments like darkened parking lots. The choices they make may make them more likely to be a victim. Short or weak men should make sure to change into hoodies or leather jackets or other “tough” clothing before walking through dark parking lots, so that they don’t increase their risk of becoming victims by their bad choices. See, many men are often comfortable offloading this kind of comparison onto small, comparatively remote elite groups such as the vaguely-defined “very rich” or “obviously rich”. If significantly larger subsets of the male population were being asked to adopt these kinds of precautions just to go about their business in their daily lives, they might find it easier to see the problems with it. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/71 "2017-11-07T18:05:59Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > You appear to have misspelled “Why the fuck are we sending men to college if they’re so uncontrollably predatory that they will rape 1/10 of their female classmates?” > > People need to stop treating rape and sexual assault primarily as a sort of natural hazard that it’s chiefly the responsibility of women (or those who are assumed to have the responsibility of “sending” women places or “letting” women do things) to avoid. > > Rape and sexual assault are crimes. If criminal attacks are being directed against women, the solution is to go after the criminals committing the attacks, not to place limitations on women’s behavior. There is no reason to believe that the rapists are all or mostly students. Also one rapist can have many victims. We can do both, flood campuses with police to find and prosecute the rapists and in the meantime teach women how best to avoid being attacked. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/72 "2017-11-07T18:11:01Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > In the short term, yes. But we would not consider it an acceptable sustainable system. We’d expect structural, institutional changes to fix the problem. We would? AFAIK the police response to a victim of theft is that the police, more or less, have no hope of catching the theif or recovering the lost property. Socially, it’s similar. If someone, for example, leaves a bike unlocked on a college campus and has it stolen the response is generally “why didn’t you lock your bike you idiot”. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/73 "2017-11-07T18:21:01Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > I agree that yoga pants don’t drive men to rape, but they do make the woman more noticeable. And just like anything that makes you more noticeable, you’re more likely to be noticed by bad people. That could be the same thing for looking very rich. If a bad person is looking for someone to attack, they are going to notice the more noticeable people. It would be more risky for someone obviously rich to walk through a darkened parking lot while totally engrossed in their phone. The point is to realize that the world has bad people and that the choices you make may make you more likely to be a victim. That doesn’t mean you’re asking to be attacked, but you should take reasonable precautions for the environment you’re in. Do you consider always wearing street clothes to the gym, changing there, and changing back – to be a “reasonable precaution”? Because that sort of thing–multiplied across the dozens of other incredibly marginal “precautions” women are urged to take–seems oppressive to me. I mean, if you felt like your work parking lot was so mugging-prone that you needed to wear sweatpants (to run faster) and a money belt to go from your car to your door, and change everyday in your work bathroom–and repeat at closing time–would that seem like a reasonable precaution for the world to expect you to take? Or would you expect your employer or local government to do something about the criminal gangs apparently roaming the streets? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/74 "2017-11-07T18:22:24Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > There is no reason to believe that the rapists are all or mostly students. On the contrary, there seems to be pretty good reason to believe it. From the OP’s second link: > [@](#): > > Previous research has shown that from 20 to 25 percent of women will experience a sexual assault while at university; the risk is highest during their first two years. Most assaults are committed by men who are known by the victim or part of her social circle. Most male members of female university students’ “social circle” are their fellow students. > [@puddleglum](#): > > Also one rapist can have many victims. > We can do both, flood campuses with police to find and prosecute the rapists and in the meantime teach women how best to avoid being attacked. Not to mention (and why do some people seem so reluctant to mention it?) teaching men how best to avoid attacking women or condoning attacks on women. As other posters have noted, lots of men who commit sexual assault or even penetrative rape think that what they did somehow didn’t count as rape. Men in general need to get on board with the notion that preventing rape is far more about changing men’s behavior than about changing women’s behavior. High incidence of rape, especially on campuses, is overwhelmingly not about a few masked non-student strangers lurking in bushes and parking lots to prey on their “many victims”. It’s about women’s male classmates and supposed friends thinking they’re entitled or permitted to do things that they’re not. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/75 "2017-11-07T18:22:53Z")
> [@treis](#): > > We would? AFAIK the police response to a victim of theft is that the police, more or less, have no hope of catching the theif or recovering the lost property. Socially, it’s similar. If someone, for example, leaves a bike unlocked on a college campus and has it stolen the response is generally “why didn’t you lock your bike you idiot”. But mugging is a violent crime. We don’t accept a 10% chance of being the victim of violent crime as the cost of doing business in any other context. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/76 "2017-11-07T18:36:30Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Socially, it’s similar. If someone, for example, leaves a bike unlocked on a college campus and has it stolen the response is generally “why didn’t you lock your bike you idiot”. If somebody **does** lock their bike and it gets stolen anyway, is the response generally “why did you bring a bike to campus in the first place, you idiot”? If somebody gets drunk at a party with their friends, and later they find their money and credit cards missing from their wallet, is the response generally “why did you get drunk with your friends around, you idiot”? Locking one’s bike is an easy and simple precaution against theft. What women are being advised to do as so-called precautions against rape is not just the occasional easy and simple action: it’s fundamental changes in how they go about their daily lives. (Look at **HurricaneDitka** ’s reaction that women who have a high risk of being raped at college maybe just shouldn’t be going to college, for example.) Women are expected to limit and second-guess all the ordinary actions of their lives to reduce rape risk, to an extent that society would never expect men to put up with in their own lives to reduce the risk of becoming crime victims. And when some women **do** become rape victims, they are blamed for not limiting and second-guessing their actions more successfully. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/77 "2017-11-07T18:39:39Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > I agree that yoga pants don’t drive men to rape, but they do make the woman more noticeable. And just like anything that makes you more noticeable, you’re more likely to be noticed by bad people. Why stop at the yoga pants, though? If staying unnoticed is the ultimate protection against being unraped, we should just tell women to stay home, right? And if they stay home, then they don’t need to know how to drive. Let’s leave it to the men to do that. Furthermore, why bother letting them go to school? I mean, a woman’s proper place is at home anyway. At home, not being raped. And in the rare case when she needs to be out in public, we could put a sheet over her to keep her body from being noticed. Yup, that’s the ticket. No alcohol for her, either. For her safety. > [@](#): > > The point is to realize that the world has bad people and that the choices you make may make you more likely to be a victim. That doesn’t mean you’re asking to be attacked, but you should take reasonable precautions for the environment you’re in. No, the point is that you are still missing the point. As a man who doesn’t live in fear of rape, it’s very easy for you to advise women to take “reasonable precautions” that 1) conveniently never apply to you and 2) that are completely made-up and not based on any real data. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/78 "2017-11-07T18:44:41Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > But mugging is a violent crime. We don’t accept a 10% chance of being the victim of violent crime as the cost of doing business in any other context. Sure we do. That’s why in crappy neighborhoods the guy at the gas station is behind bullet proof glass. It’s why taxi’s have dividers between the driver and the passenger. Target hardening is part of the response to most, if not all, crimes. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/79 "2017-11-07T19:00:35Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Sure we do. That’s why in crappy neighborhoods the guy at the gas station is behind bullet proof glass. It’s why taxi’s have dividers between the driver and the passenger. Target hardening is part of the response to most, if not all, crimes. You’re suggesting that women’s everyday lives should be lived like they are working behind the register at a crappy gas station? That seems reasonable and unremarkable to you? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943/80 "2017-11-07T19:10:18Z")
Yes, when a man rapes a woman, the blame lies 100% on the man, and yes, we should be doing more to educate men about what is and is not acceptable. But the situation isn’t entirely symmetric. Most men want to avoid raping someone. Out of that group, most already won’t rape anyone, but there are some who want to avoid rape but are ignorant about what it actually entails, and so might rape someone without realizing that it’s rape. Education would be effective at reducing those numbers. But there are also, unfortunately, some men who don’t care that they’re committing rape, and will do it anyway even if they know very clearly that it’s rape. You can’t do anything about that group through just education. By contrast, 100% of women want to avoid being raped (by definition; if they don’t want to avoid it, then it’s not rape). So if you can teach a woman ways to prevent being raped, it’ll help with _all_ of the cases, including the ones that can’t be addressed by educating men. To be sure, of course, there are many other measures that should be taken, as well. For instance, when someone reports a serious crime, and the nature of the crime is such that the criminal leaves DNA evidence, there’s no reason whatsoever that that evidence shouldn’t be analyzed and processed by the next day. I find it unfathomable that we don’t devote the relatively meager resources necessary to make that happen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-reduce-rape-by-half/800943.md?page=5)