Your first cite says “Based on evaluation studies included in the current review, only three primary prevention strategies have demonstrated significant effects on sexually violent behavior in a rigorous outcome evaluation” Given that 140 programs were evaluated the three strategies that were found to work are likely to be ineffective as well.
In general it is very, very hard to get people to change in any meaningful way and we should be very skeptical of any intervention that claims to have large results.
There is a difference between “you should fight back” and “you should have fought back”. I am saying the first, I am not saying the second.
Regards,
Shodan
How can one say the former and not imply the latter?
By saying the former and not saying the latter. If anyone can’t or doesn’t want to understand, nothing can be done.
Regards,
Shodan
(Bolding mine)
Explain that logic please, it does not compute for me.
But yes cultural changes are hard, and it is apparent that those changes are required. It will remain to be seen if we as a country will make meaningful steps to work against the rape supportive attitudes that have been demonstrated to be a predictor in behavior.
IMHO the recent rise in holding even famous men accountable for their egregious actions is part of us making that effort.
By saying that there is a general strategy that one should always consider, which statistically is successful, but that may not always be the best for every real-life situation that comes up.
It’s kinda like how the blanket statement “Everyone should get vaccinated” is pretty much true, but that doesn’t mean there are not people who are not occasionally exceptions to the rule, as well as a non-zero number of people for whom a vaccination did not work, or for whom it mitigated a disease, but did not completely prevent it. Just because you might be speaking to one of the few people who cannot be vaccinated (or hold a titer), that does not make the advice bad.
No one blames people with egg allergies or housemates with cancer who cannot get vaccines. And you don’t blame the woman who is informed about self-defense techniques who evaluates a situation and decides that in this particular case they will not help her, and could make things worse. She doesn’t get a do-over if she picks wrong.
I think more words are required.
A woman who is in danger of being raped must evaluate her circumstances and decide what action to take. That MIGHT be “you should fight back” that MIGHT be “you should run and scream” that MIGHT be “you should just wait for it to be over.” That might even be “just slap him across the face” - I have heard of women who that worked fine for - their date really just needed the wake up call of “no means no” and then he apologized.
Following the rape, a woman must then evaluate what action she needs to take. That might be going to the hospital or going to the police. That might be going home, taking a shower, and never saying anything to anyone.
All these options, and tons more, are acceptable responses. And until the woman in in the circumstances, she will not be able to anticipate what the right response for those circumstances are. Each is going to be unique - the time, the place, the woman, the rapist… And no one should pretend she will be able to anticipate what the right response will be. And second guessing the response after the fact is a HUGE no no.
This whole business about doing rape prevention in women and not men…
You know, we don’t just teach our kids to lock the door, keep track of their money/cards/wallet/phone, and so on. We also teach them from a young age (or we should) that you don’t take other peoples’ stuff, too.
Seems to me that approaching this from both sides is worthwhile.
I thought this was going to be about, like, a drug that reduced aggression in men or something like that. That would actually be cool and interesting. Instead this is more boring stuff about women wearing yoga pants and drinking less.
“Don’t go out drinking with people you don’t know very well” is never going to fly at a mass scale, because lots of women and men drink voluntarily and consensually in order to lower their own sexual inhibitions and make sex more likely. If women drank less there might be less rape, but women would also be less free to have consensual sex, which isn’t a particularly good solution.
The key there is from a young age. It would seem a bit late when we’re talking about 18-22 year old men.
We remind adults, e.g., not to leave valuables in their cars. We don’t remind adults that taking things from cars is stealing and that’s bad and please don’t do that.
Thank you for expressing my thoughts so well!
100% this.
Rape, for some reason, lends itself to all kinds of strategists pontificating on what to do and how to do it. You simply don’t see this kind of thing with any other crime.
With a simple street mugging, what is advised? To try to pop the assailant in the eye and make a mad dash for it, regardless of whether the mugger outweighs you by 50 lbs of muscle and is possibly armed? I don’t think I’ve ever heard this preached, presumably because its clear that one must know their limitations before fighting with a person dangerous enough to mug you.
I used to envision that if someone tried to rape me, I would physically fight back with all my life force. After years of thinking about it, though, I have to admit I don’t know what the hell I’d do. Keeping all my teeth—and not losing them by being repeatedly punched or kicked in the head—is something kind of important to me.
That probably has more to do with your usual hangouts than any actual lack of preaching. For an example, see here.
You do if you ever took one of my classes, or trained under any of the same people I did.
Escape is always the best option. The eye poke is what you do when you cannot escape right away. But especially if he is armed - if he has a knife or club, he can’t hurt you unless within arm’s reach, and if he has a gun, the further away you are the less likely he is to be able to hit you if he shoots.
The difference in advice on what to do in a mugging vs. what to do in an attempted rape comes from the different nature of the two crimes - toss your wallet or purse in one direction and run in the other direction is good advice for both. But it is possible to get thru a mugging without suffering significant loss, because often they just want your money. This is not possible in a rape, because the rape is the point and that’s worse than losing your credit cards.
But whether it is a mugging, attempted rape, or other kind of street crime, you escape if you can, fight until you can escape, and make a lot of noise (keep screaming no matter what, smash windows, anything) in any case. This goes for acquaintance rape as well as stranger rape.
Regards,
Shodan
Even if it means your kids in the next room will see? Even if it means you’ll have to change jobs? Even if your not sure the people who come running will have your back?
These are not easy calls, and blanket advice comes across as smug.
It seems in some cases, women are in the position of either
a) being raped
or
b) being beaten, having a dislocated jaw or broken arm or concussion, and also being raped
For some mysterious reason, they tend to choose a.
I like the Active Shooter training approach. Be aware of your options. Use your best judgment.
Yes.
No, they’re not.
Some of the time. More common is the choice of being raped and beaten, or beaten and not raped.
Regards,
Shodan
Far from it. Most rapes will remain non-violent if you do not resist. Most rapes are “date rapes” - the guy just isn’t taking no for an answer. So the woman has to decide if she is going to escalate. If that will knock a little sense into the guy - sure, that’s a great option. If it turns a guy who is entitled to sex and isn’t listening into a guy who is entitled to sex and angry about getting hit into someone who beats the crap out of you, no it isn’t.
The person in the best position to decide this is the woman who is in the circumstances.
Your blanket advice could get women killed in addition to getting raped. Or permanently disabled. Or scarred. It could cause her economic hardship - if the rapist is in a position of power over her. It could open her up to a criminal assault complaint - and frankly, a lot of women trust cops with rape about as much as black men driving in white neighborhoods do. (That is another conversation we, as a society, should have.). I really don’t think you have a clue what it is like to be in these circumstances - frankly, unless you’ve been raped I don’t see how you could be. Second best would be working in a rape crisis center (which I’ve also done). Teaching self defense is not sufficient to understand these decisions.
Do you have a citation for this?