# How to tell H. neanderthalensis from H. sapiens sapiens **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 3, 2016, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-tell-h-neanderthalensis-from-h-sapiens-sapiens/747871 "2016-03-03T22:08:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-tell-h-neanderthalensis-from-h-sapiens-sapiens/747871/21 "2016-03-04T00:25:26Z")
> [@TSBG](#): > > Look at his prominent chin, though. You can’t see his chin because of his beard! Sorry, I was looking at the wrong guy… You’re right. There seems to be some variety in the Neanderthal reconstructions - some look very clearly different from modern humans, while others look very close to us. The Neanderthal photo I linked to above is from a recent exhibition at London’s Natural History Museum and they also made a model of an early Homo sapiens - [see here](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/environment/archaeology/10568538/Meet-the-ancestors-best-ever-reconstruction-of-early-humans-and-Neanderthals.html) to compare the two reconstructions side by side. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-tell-h-neanderthalensis-from-h-sapiens-sapiens/747871/22 "2016-03-04T01:21:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’ve spent a lot of time looking at Neanderthal bones and, more importantly, Neanderthal recreations, so I’m just gauging by that. You could be right, but I’m just going by my own experience, and having seen some pretty Neanderthal-ish sapiens walking the streets. Not all of us have chins (or much of one), and some of us have some heavily protruding faces. You can’t simply go by eyeballing bones or reconstructions. As I said, _in combination_ the many distinctions should allow Neanderthals to reliably be distinguished from sapiens. It has been said that if you shaved a Neanderthal, dressed him up in modern clothes, and put him on a subway car in New York he wouldn’t draw a second glance. That might be possibly be true, but that doesn’t mean that if a scientist took a careful look at him he wouldn’t be able to distinguish him immediately. ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-tell-h-neanderthalensis-from-h-sapiens-sapiens/747871/23 "2016-03-04T01:31:06Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > You can’t simply go by eyeballing bones or reconstructions. As I said, _in combination_ the many distinctions should allow Neanderthals to reliably be distinguished from sapiens. > > It has been said that if you shaved a Neanderthal, dressed him up in modern clothes, and put him on a subway car in New York he wouldn’t draw a second glance. That might be possibly be true, but that doesn’t mean that if a scientist took a careful look at him he wouldn’t be able to distinguish him immediately. Was it Asimov who said that? I always took that as a clever way to convey that Neanderthals are closer to us than the stereotype of a brutish “cave man” would indicate, rather than a serious proposition. Because the boxer in the photo linked above, though not a Neanderthal, would definitely get a second glance. A quick, covert, second glance. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-tell-h-neanderthalensis-from-h-sapiens-sapiens/747871/24 "2016-03-04T01:51:07Z")
In addition to the boxer Valuev, the Neanderthal [reconstruction](http://www.nhm.ac.uk/content/dam/nhmwww/our-science/news/neanderthal-news.jpg) reminded me of someone else, but I couldn’t put my finger on it - [then it hit me](http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/ad5f6529322b4259b6b530ee825b8f38/jack-palance-solar-crisis-1990-bpjpem.jpg). From the neck down, [hairless chimpanzees](https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/28/34/5b/28345bc12f2ae38b9bb644637f98c4a9.jpg) look relatively human. (Well, perhaps not _every_ part of them - I was wondering whether to add a NSFW warning!). ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-tell-h-neanderthalensis-from-h-sapiens-sapiens/747871/25 "2016-03-04T01:53:54Z")
Damn, that chimp is RIPPED. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-tell-h-neanderthalensis-from-h-sapiens-sapiens/747871/26 "2016-03-04T02:03:04Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > From the neck down, [hairless chimpanzees](https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/28/34/5b/28345bc12f2ae38b9bb644637f98c4a9.jpg) look relatively human. (Well, perhaps not _every_ part of them - I was wondering whether to add a NSFW warning!). That chimp is sitting, which hides the relative lengths of the legs and arms. Chimp’s arms are _much_ longer than humans, relative their legs. But yeah, there is a lot of similarity. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-tell-h-neanderthalensis-from-h-sapiens-sapiens/747871/27 "2016-03-04T04:05:57Z")
> [@TSBG](#): > > Was it Asimov who said that? It might have been, actually. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-tell-h-neanderthalensis-from-h-sapiens-sapiens/747871/28 "2016-03-04T04:12:14Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That chimp is sitting, which hides the relative lengths of the legs and arms. Chimp’s arms are _much_ longer than humans, relative their legs. But yeah, there is a lot of similarity. [Here](http://www.chimpanzoo.org/volunteers/hilda/reports/india/r1.htm36.jpg)’s a hairless chimpanzee standing up, showing the evident differences in arm and leg length, as well as standing posture. Its gait as it walked would also be a clear giveaway. Neanderthals were fully bipedal and probably walked fully upright, like we do, but [research](http://phys.org/news/2011-02-early-humans-won-neandertals.html) has shown that their heels were slightly different than Homo sapiens, being more adapted to walking than running and with less of a spring in their step. So perhaps one might recognise a Neanderthal by its gait as it walked. [Here](https://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/permanent/humanorigins/meettherelatives/images/intro_slide1.jpg)’s a comparison of the skeletons of a chimpanzee, Neanderthal and human and one can see the clear similarities between the Neanderthal skeleton and our own, but also that it’s a much more robust frame. What about [this photo](http://cdn4.sci-news.com/images/enlarge/image_1837e-Neanderthal.jpg) of a reconstructed Neanderthal dressed in modern clothing? He is a little unusual-looking, but if I passed by him without looking at him directly, I’m not sure he’d necessarily draw my attention. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-tell-h-neanderthalensis-from-h-sapiens-sapiens/747871/29 "2016-03-04T04:18:08Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > It has been said that if you shaved a Neanderthal, dressed him up in modern clothes, and put him on a subway car in New York he wouldn’t draw a second glance. That might be possibly be true, but that doesn’t mean that if a scientist took a careful look at him he wouldn’t be able to distinguish him immediately. Which is pretty much what I said in post #20. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-tell-h-neanderthalensis-from-h-sapiens-sapiens/747871/30 "2016-03-04T04:30:25Z")
If I saw the H. neanderthal dressed in a suit on the subway, I’d wonder what syndrome he had, but that’s just because of my profession. I’ve known so many people who were perfectly normal except their facial features were off the bell curve; they’d have “whatever” syndrome, and maybe had a minor hearing or vision impairment, or maybe nothing at all, but they would look more like an unrelated person with the same syndrome than their own family members. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-tell-h-neanderthalensis-from-h-sapiens-sapiens/747871/31 "2016-03-04T04:36:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Which is pretty much what I said in post #20. The OP asks whether a “medical examination” could detect the differences, not casual observation on the street by an ordinary observer as you suggest. An examination by a medical doctor aware of the differences in bone structure would I think identify a Neanderthal 100% of the time. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-tell-h-neanderthalensis-from-h-sapiens-sapiens/747871/32 "2016-03-04T04:48:31Z")
Man is the only animal with a chin. Pointy side out. I think I read that somewhere recently– **Colibri** probably knows. It certainly sounds good. Neat little article/abstract I just found trying (haphazardly) to find my source (which this isn’t): [The ontogeny of the chin: an analysis of allometric and biomechanics scaling](http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/joa.12307/abstract) N. E. Holton1,2,\*, L. L. Bonner1, J. E. Scott2, S. D. Marshall1, R. G. Franciscus2 andT. E. Southard1 Article first published online: 11 APR 2015 Journal of Anatomy Volume 226, Issue 6, pages 549–559, June 2015 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-tell-h-neanderthalensis-from-h-sapiens-sapiens/747871/33 "2016-03-04T05:08:48Z")
> [@TSBG](#): > > Was it Asimov who said that? > [@Colibri](#): > > It might have been, actually. Not Asimov. but some anthropologist or other. I’ve seen it attributed to Carlton Coon, but also to others. I still remember reading that quote in 1969 when I was doing research at the public library for my JHS term paper on “Early Man”, but don’t remember to whom it was attributed. I think it goes back at least to the 1950s, probably earlier. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-tell-h-neanderthalensis-from-h-sapiens-sapiens/747871/34 "2016-03-04T09:01:55Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Should mention that the question was inspired by [this](http://www.daynes.com/en/hominids-reconstructions.html) fascinating site of facial reconstructions I find the proposal for Homo Ergaster (third row, second picture) particularly striking. He looks like he wouldn’t be very noticeable (if at all) if he was passing by you in the street. I find this very surprising given how old this species is. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-tell-h-neanderthalensis-from-h-sapiens-sapiens/747871/35 "2016-03-04T10:08:57Z")
[Listen to the speak](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o589CAu73UM). ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-tell-h-neanderthalensis-from-h-sapiens-sapiens/747871/36 "2016-03-04T10:21:49Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > I believe 50,000 years ago, humans were all Africans. There were [people in Australia](http://www.australiangeographic.com.au/news/2011/09/dna-confirms-aboriginal-culture-one-of-earths-oldest/) at least 50k years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-tell-h-neanderthalensis-from-h-sapiens-sapiens/747871/37 "2016-03-04T13:38:32Z")
This [lecture video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8ZTp-gs-Ok&feature=youtu.be&t=400) shows a bit more of the Neanderthal (L) and Homo sapiens (R) reconstructions side by side. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-tell-h-neanderthalensis-from-h-sapiens-sapiens/747871/38 "2016-03-04T14:39:13Z")
What’s the latest theory on whether H. neanderthalensis had speech organs? I know several linguists who think that the speech areas of the brain evolved before the speech organs of the throat and mouth, so it is possible that the first language was a combination of grunts and clicks, along with gestures and facial expressions. What I’m actually getting at is whether we had speech before H. Sapiens showed up, so neanderthal had it too. Did erectus have speech? habilis? I used to be very current on all this when I used to browse bookstores, now, sadly, because I mostly read kindle, my books are more deliberately chosen. I usually zoom to what I’m looking for, and buy it. But that was also before I had kid at home. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-tell-h-neanderthalensis-from-h-sapiens-sapiens/747871/39 "2016-03-04T15:00:57Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > What’s the latest theory on whether H. neanderthalensis had speech organs? > > I know several linguists who think that the speech areas of the brain evolved before the speech organs of the throat and mouth, so it is possible that the first language was a combination of grunts and clicks, along with gestures and facial expressions. What I’m actually getting at is whether we had speech before H. Sapiens showed up, so neanderthal had it too. Did erectus have speech? habilis? > > I used to be very current on all this when I used to browse bookstores, now, sadly, because I mostly read kindle, my books are more deliberately chosen. I usually zoom to what I’m looking for, and buy it. But that was also before I had kid at home. The latest theory? All over the place. But I’m not sure what you mean by “speech organs”. Chimps have “speech organs”, their just arranged differently than ours. There was a big to-do a few years back when a Neanderthal hyoid bone was discovered\* (a very rare find) and it was virtually indistinguishable from ours in morphology and position. There is, in fact, still a debate about our own species and whether we had “fully articulated language” from the beginning (about 200K years ago), or whether we only developed it just prior to our explosion out of Africa (about 60K years ago). \*I think it had been discovered earlier, but was not fully analyzed. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-tell-h-neanderthalensis-from-h-sapiens-sapiens/747871/40 "2016-03-04T15:30:32Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I find the proposal for Homo Ergaster (third row, second picture) particularly striking. He looks like he wouldn’t be very noticeable (if at all) if he was passing by you in the street. I find this very surprising given how old this species is. If you[shaved his head,](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/0SXymdmrpjI/maxresdefault.jpg) he would look like a [pinhead.](http://www.thehumanmarvels.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/SCHLITZIE-THE-PINHEAD.jpg) You would definitely notice him anywhere outside a sideshow. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-tell-h-neanderthalensis-from-h-sapiens-sapiens/747871.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-tell-h-neanderthalensis-from-h-sapiens-sapiens/747871.md?page=3)