# How to think correctly about Israel and Palestine **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 14, 2006, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429 "2006-07-14T04:08:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/21 "2006-07-14T16:48:21Z")
[QUOTE=Loopydude] I think 20th century Zionism is an odd mix of both secular and purely religious motivations, but the secular ones were the most prominent, by far, when Israel was being created. There’s no easy path to follow from the sky pixie’s promise to today. [/quote] So it’s just a coincidence that today’s Israel is in the same locale as the Promised Land and closely resembles the kingdom of Jeroboam II? > [@](#): > > I’ve pretty much come around completely to the notion of Israel as a _fait accompli_ the rest of the world just needs to accept and deal with. It’s younger than the U.S., and many other nations where migration and invasion has displaced one nationality with another, but I don’t think it’s really much more tenable to propose dismantling Israel through violence and returning it to Arab control than returning the U.S. to First Nation’s control. If Israel does become an Arab-dominated society, it will have to happen far more slowly and organically than the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah would like, and hopefully democratically as well. I don’t think that the comparison of Israel to the US is valid. Yes, the US territory was taken in a succession of land grabs. The granting of large tracts of land they didn’t own by English, French and other kings was probably even more ridiculous than carving Israel out of existing states. I still am either flabergasted or amused by Napoleon selling the Louisiana Purchase, most of which France didn’t own in and meaningful sense, and of Jefferson and the US calm acceptance of the belief that he had a right to sell it. However, the indigenous population of the US was overwhelmed by vastly greater numbers of invaders. That’s not true of Israel. They are a tiny population surrounded by a vastly greater number of enemies. I have no idea of how to “think correctly” about Israel and Palestine, but I don’t see any peace in that area under any circumstances for a long time, and maybe never as long a Israel is there as a burr under the saddle. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/22 "2006-07-14T16:51:40Z")
[QUOTE=Unregistered Bull] Israel is a country that was created with the help of Jewish terrorists committing terrorist acts that faces a homegrown terrorist problem from non-Jewish people that they’ve maltreated since the inception of their state. They receive a tremendous amount of support from the world’s major power (US) that they habitually committ espionage against and have in the past, even committed atrocities against (the USS Liberty). [/QUOTE] And people wonder why Jews feel the need for a dedicated Jewish state. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/23 "2006-07-14T16:57:47Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] And people wonder why Jews feel the need for a dedicated Jewish state. [/QUOTE] Care to offer a refutation of the above? Which is not to say Israel is the only, or even the worst, “bad guy” in the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/24 "2006-07-14T17:04:49Z")
[QUOTE=Ludovic] Care to offer a refutation of the above? Which is not to say Israel is the only, or even the worst, “bad guy” in the situation. [/QUOTE] It’s the tone that does it. And the Liberty incedent is well known as a fuck-up, not an “atrocity” ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/25 "2006-07-14T17:06:11Z")
incident, even. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/26 "2006-07-14T17:07:20Z")
[QUOTE=Pjen] I’m really pleased that you fully understand the problem. [/quote] I don’t. I don’t think “nuance” and various forms of cleverness and diplomacy are going to solve anything at this point. The calculus is this: One side’s gotta win. I pick Isreal because I like that side better and I think they’ll be a peaceful, responsible nation once they win. If Palestine, the Arab world, and their fellow travellers were to win, they’d have destroyed Isreal (that’s their stated goal), probably killed as many Israelis as they could (i.e., genocide), and then go on to their next target. Because they are, in essence, a culture that derives its raison d’etre from conflict and dissatisfaction. > [@](#): > > Problems like this are so complex and recalcitrant to solution, that simplistic one-sided analyses like yours totally fail to address the problem. I totally disagree. It has been the attempt to apply civilized means to a problem involving an uncivlized enemy that has drawn this thing out so long. Israel had the right idea back in the 1960s. > [@](#): > > It is worth discussing details of policy and reactions of factions to changes in the situation, but to make broad brush statements about Israel: “just gotta knock Hamas and Hezbollah and Iran and whoever on their ass and make sure that they never get up.” and assuming that that will make the situation better, rather than drumming up more anti-Israel support, is just not realistic. More than support at this point, Israel needs respect. > [@](#): > > The Islamic world spreads from Israel west across the north of Africa and east nearly as far as Australia. There are 1.5 billion followers of Islam- a lot of potential enemies. I was very careful to say Arab world and fellow travellers. I don’t see Islam as the problem; it’s the ME negative and dissatisfied and antisemitic Islam that’s the issue. > [@](#): > > The strike em hard and wipe em out strategy is hardly likely to work better with Hezbollah and Hamas than it has for Bush and Al Qaeda; in fact it is more likely to be a recruiting agent for future terror. Well, Bush’s plan for Afganistan was originally good and was working. IOW, total ass-kicking followed by a dominant presence. Plus it was attacking the right enemy, the people that actually attacked us. I don’t oppose the Iraq War because it wasn’t nice, I oppose it because it was strategically misconceived and ineptly executed at multiple levels. > [@](#): > > Israel’s best option is to do as little as possible to maintain its borders for a long period of time, gaining time for the Islamic world to accept Israel as a fact, but with the realization that unless they have a fifty-sixty year exit strategy from most of the occupied territories, then they may as well accept that they will remain in a state of terrorist threat for ever. As long as the Palestinians have a justified grievance and little to lose, Israel will be attacked regularly. I think my plan is better for the Israelis: kick ass spreading outward and keep the terrorists totally out of their territory. > [@](#): > > Two generations ago, the thought that a British Goverment would have stated that it is willing for the North of Ireland to reunite with the south (which it probably will in some way within another couple of generations) would have been totally unacceptable. Similarly the idea that the Irish Republican Army would lay down its arms and agree to wait for the political process to work its way out would have been totally unacceptable. Both things have happened. Yeah, but Ireland is hermetically sealed. Israel is surrounded by enemies who define much of their politics in terms of enmity toward Israel. IOW, if Israel didn’t exist, they’d have to invent it. Here’s a fact: People and entire cultures can choose negativity as their motive force. We all know people like this: Always a conflict with someone they’re bitching about, always some sort of injustice against them they’re bitching about, always a new psychodrama. People like that don’t _want_ to solve their problems! And so it is with much of the ME. These are not happy nations striving for a peaceful modernity. They define themselves in terms of envy of, resentment toward, and conflict with Israel and the West. They have accepted their role of loser and are playing it to the hilt. > [@](#): > > That is unless the situation gets completely out of hand and Israel uses extreme force against an enemy and an ‘Islamic’ nuclear attack is carried out on Israel. That would be some major fireworks, and Israel would be setting most of them off. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/27 "2006-07-14T17:11:23Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] So it’s just a coincidence that today’s Israel is in the same locale as the Promised Land and closely resembles the kingdom of Jeroboam II? [/QUOTE] Of course not. But to make a Labor Zionist like Ben Gurion out to be a religious zealot is absurd. Albert Einstein was as much behind the foundation of the State of Israel as any Haredi partisan, and despite being an avowed secularist, was invited to be the nation’s prime minister. Oversimplifying the nature of Israel simply doesn’t help current comprehension. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/28 "2006-07-14T17:12:16Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] So it’s just a coincidence that today’s Israel is in the same locale as the Promised Land and closely resembles the kingdom of Jeroboam II? I don’t think that the comparison of Israel to the US is valid. Yes, the US territory was taken in a succession of land grabs. The granting of large tracts of land they didn’t own by English, French and other kings was probably even more ridiculous than carving Israel out of existing states. I still am either flabergasted or amused by Napoleon selling the Louisiana Purchase, most of which France didn’t own in and meaningful sense, and of Jefferson and the US calm acceptance of the belief that he had a right to sell it. However, the indigenous population of the US was overwhelmed by vastly greater numbers of invaders. That’s not true of Israel. They are a tiny population surrounded by a vastly greater number of enemies. I have no idea of how to “think correctly” about Israel and Palestine, but I don’t see any peace in that area under any circumstances for a long time, and maybe never as long a Israel is there as a burr under the saddle. [/QUOTE] Two thoughts: 1. Yoiu express amazement over American grabbing Indian lands, yet I don’t see you giving those lands back and returning to Europe. In fact, you seem to be implying than the very fact that Europeans comminted genocide against the Native Americans is what gives you the right to live on their lands - that genocide is the solution to any potential problems. That’s an interesting thought. I’ll bear it in mind. 2. We’re Jews. We never let precident stand in our path. First they told us that you can’t worship ONE god, you have to worship MANY gods. We showed the world different. Then they told us that a tribal nation cannot continue to exsit as a coherent religion and culture after being banished from its homeland. Again, we showed the world different. THEN they told us we couldn’t just get up and start a nation out of scratch. And once more, we showed the world that it was talking out of its ass. Now you’re telling us that we can’t exist indefinitely surrounded by hostile nations. Well… we’ll just see about that, shall we? Don’t write us off yet. This is us we’re talking about. We don’t have to obey history. History is our _bitch_. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/29 "2006-07-14T17:22:07Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Arabs are a semitic people. Are you saying they suffer from self-loathing?Really? So we might as well not even discuss it?It’s just \*a priori \* not gonna work. [/QUOTE] One of the early proponents of modern organized anti-Jew(ishness) entitled a seminal (heh) paper “Anti-Semitism” in its modern sense (despite the fact it apparently only applied to Jews). So those who subscribe to organized antisemitism are using it as the term was originally invented. The term has since been widened to apply to all those who are prejudiced against Jews. I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch considering its historical links. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/30 "2006-07-14T17:24:10Z")
[QUOTE=Apos] I just don’t get why Israel seems to be bombing airports, suburbs, highways, [/QUOTE] It’s their way of thanking Lebanon for harboring Hezbollah terrorists. It also stops the inflow of missiles by airlift from other countries. When Israel relinquished Gaza to self-rule that was the political beginning for Palestinian self-rule. The infiltration and capture of Israeli soldiers was treated as an act of war by a sovereign state. This has the potential of a full-scale war involving Palestine, Syria, and Lebanon. And if Israel returns the Hezbollah missiles to their rightful owners then Iran will get dragged into it. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/31 "2006-07-14T18:27:00Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] 1. We’re Jews. We never let precident stand in our path. First they told us that you can’t worship ONE god, you have to worship MANY gods. We showed the world different. Then they told us that a tribal nation cannot continue to exsit as a coherent religion and culture after being banished from its homeland. Again, we showed the world different. THEN they told us we couldn’t just get up and start a nation out of scratch. And once more, we showed the world that it was talking out of its ass. Now you’re telling us that we can’t exist indefinitely surrounded by hostile nations. Well… we’ll just see about that, shall we? Don’t write us off yet. This is us we’re talking about. We don’t have to obey history. History is our _bitch_. [/QUOTE] You forgot – THEN they told us, you can’t take a language that nobody has spoken for 2000 years, and make it live again 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/32 "2006-07-14T19:03:19Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] 1. Yoiu express amazement over American grabbing Indian lands, yet I don’t see you giving those lands back and returning to Europe. In fact, you seem to be implying than the very fact that Europeans comminted genocide against the Native Americans is what gives you the right to live on their lands - that genocide is the solution to any potential problems. That’s an interesting thought. I’ll bear it in mind. [/quote] Sad to say, in the case of the US might seems to have made right. At least our political, religious and social leaders seem to spend quite a bit of oratorical time on how wonderful, what a beacon of liberty and exemplary model for the rest of the world we are. > [@](#): > > 1. … THEN they told us we couldn’t just get up and start a nation out of scratch. And once more, we showed the world that it was talking out of its ass. > > Now you’re telling us that we can’t exist indefinitely surrounded by hostile nations. Well… we’ll just see about that, shall we? Don’t write us off yet. > > This is us we’re talking about. We don’t have to obey history. History is our _bitch_. I wish you only the best. However, without support from the US and other nations over the long haul you have a heavy load. At the moment we are seriously occupied elsewhere and can’t really do much in the way of assistance. I am not convinced that the recent aggessive moves by Hamas and Hezbolla are just a coincidence. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/33 "2006-07-14T19:39:17Z")
[QUOTE=Aeschines] Then there is this issue: There’s no reason for a “Palestinian State.” There are plenty of Arab tyrannies to choose from–hmm, Egypt, Syria, Jordan (might not even be too bad, this one). [/quote] None of those countries are going to welcome the Palestinians. Syria won’t even grant citizenship to the Palestinians they’ve got. IIRC, in Syria many Palestinians are still living in “refugee camps” decades after they arrived. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/34 "2006-07-14T19:46:55Z")
And Jordan, the “best” on the list, had that little tiff they call [Black September](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan). ---
**Author:** ![BluePitbull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@BluePitbull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BluePitbull)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/35 "2006-07-14T20:00:27Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] None of those countries are going to welcome the Palestinians. Syria won’t even grant citizenship to the Palestinians they’ve got. IIRC, in Syria many Palestinians are still living in “refugee camps” decades after they arrived. [/QUOTE] Seems hypocritical of Syria, Lebanon and other Middle Eastern countries to “care” about what Israel is doin to Palenstine. Yet these same countries themselves aren’t doin anything to integrate Palenstinians into their country. Some questions raised by a pro-israeli at my school. Was the land abandon for thousands of years, before Israel was created? The Palenstinians didn’t call themselves Palenstinians before Israel was created? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/36 "2006-07-14T20:02:59Z")
[QUOTE=BluePitbull] Seems hypocritical of Syria, Lebanon and other Middle Eastern countries to “care” about what Israel is doin to Palenstine. [/QUOTE] So it is, but it doesn’t solve the problem of the Palestinians in the West Bank: Going to some other Arab country is **not** an option for them. ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/37 "2006-07-14T20:10:02Z")
War is mass insanity. There is no more vivid demonstration of that fact in the modern world than the Israeli-Palestinian death dance. The extremists of the two groups deserve each other, and I’d be happy to sit back and watch them slaughter themselves in the name of their bronze age sky gods if they didn’t seem so goddamned determined to bring the rest of the world down with them. I weep for the peace-lovers and innocents on both sides, and if I were among that group, I’d do everything in my power to leave that blighted charnel house for a saner place. A pox on both their houses. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/38 "2006-07-14T20:38:22Z")
[QUOTE=Noone Special] You forgot – THEN they told us, you can’t take a language that nobody has spoken for 2000 years, and make it live again 🙂 [/QUOTE] Don’t forget, THEN they said you couldn’t make a hotdog without pig lips & assholes, [but you showed them](http://www.hebrewnational.com/pages/products/franks/beef_franks.jsp)! ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/39 "2006-07-14T20:50:11Z")
The neighbouring states are using Isreal (and by extension and association the US and EU) as a bogeyman to justify the oppression and inequality of their own peoples: “Yes you’re poor and life sucks and we’re sorry, but it’s all Israel’s fault.” “But they’re just a tiny country and we’re the faithful and proud. Why don’t we go over there and kick some ass?” “Well, Isreal is supported by the U.S. and look at what they’ve done in Iraq - twice - and they’re calling the shots in Saudi-Arabia and Kuwait and corrupting the true faith.” Keeping the Palestinians in Gaza and refugee camps is further pretext for the assholes in power in Jordania, Syria, helping the powers that be to keep the tension high, which serves their own puposes. Now, the reasons we care are oil and Jews. Had this been happening in Sub-Saharan Africa, in some remote, but insignificant part of South America or anywhere else, it’d hardly merit a paragraph at the bottom of page ten. Look no further than Myanmar. However, blaiming religion is not going to lead to an answer. Religion only serves as part of the rethoric, as is almost always the case when something is done in the name of religion. It’s about money and power. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/40 "2006-07-14T22:35:11Z")
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac] It’s kind of wack to accuse the Arabs of being antisemitic, and then speak of the Palestinians as the equivalent of “6-year-old shortbusser[s] with ADD and ‘emotional problems’”. In other words, what distinguishes the OP from being out-and-out racist drivel of the Stormfront kind? Because I’m honestly not finding anything. [/QUOTE] Uh, the SFers like Jews? News to me. Anyhow, big difference between race and culture. I am talking about cultures here, not races. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429.md?page=3)