# How to think correctly about Israel and Palestine **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 14, 2006, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429 "2006-07-14T04:08:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/41 "2006-07-14T22:36:37Z")
[QUOTE=Crotalus] I am always grateful to be instructed on how to think correctly about a complicated subject by one so wise. Saves me all of that painful thinking. [/QUOTE] That’s what the SD is for. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/42 "2006-07-14T22:40:25Z")
I would like for a Hebrew-speaking liberal democracy to survive in the Levant. But if we’re talking about Realpolitik, part of that is not wishing for impossible things. The problem is the Geopolitik. Israel divides & controls what they call “Palestine,” while continuing to occupy much of what the Palestinians, & history, call Palestine. This is intolerable to the Palestinians for reasons that should be obvious, but Zionists & _their_ fellow-travelers insist that the Palestinians “lost” back in 1948 & should just give up their country. This childish misunderstanding of the nature of human history stands in the way of understanding a truth: that the ancestors of today’s Palestinians did not fight for their own country, but their descendants are lurching toward correcting that mistake. When Hamas’s terrorism fails as did Arafat’s, true warriors may finally arise & sweep the Jews out, to a man. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/43 "2006-07-14T22:42:52Z")
Weeee! So they’re gonna finish the job Hitler shoulda finished, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/44 "2006-07-14T22:51:41Z")
[QUOTE=foolsguinea] I would like for a Hebrew-speaking liberal democracy to survive in the Levant. But if we’re talking about Realpolitik, part of that is not wishing for impossible things. The problem is the Geopolitik. Israel divides & controls what they call “Palestine,” while continuing to occupy much of what the Palestinians, & history, call Palestine. This is intolerable to the Palestinians for reasons that should be obvious, but Zionists & _their_ fellow-travelers insist that the Palestinians “lost” back in 1948 & should just give up their country. This childish misunderstanding of the nature of human history stands in the way of understanding a truth: that the ancestors of today’s Palestinians did not fight for their own country, but their descendants are lurching toward correcting that mistake. When Hamas’s terrorism fails as did Arafat’s, true warriors may finally arise & sweep the Jews out, to a man. [/QUOTE] See my post #22 above. ---
**Author:** ![AFAIKnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/45 "2006-07-14T22:57:00Z")
[QUOTE=foolsguinea] I would like for a Hebrew-speaking liberal democracy to survive in the Levant. But if we’re talking about Realpolitik, part of that is not wishing for impossible things. The problem is the Geopolitik. Israel divides & controls what they call “Palestine,” while continuing to occupy much of what the Palestinians, & history, call Palestine. This is intolerable to the Palestinians for reasons that should be obvious, but Zionists & _their_ fellow-travelers insist that the Palestinians “lost” back in 1948 & should just give up their country. This childish misunderstanding of the nature of human history stands in the way of understanding a truth: that the ancestors of today’s Palestinians did not fight for their own country, but their descendants are lurching toward correcting that mistake. When Hamas’s terrorism fails as did Arafat’s, true warriors may finally arise & sweep the Jews out, to a man. [/QUOTE] wtf is a "true warrior? ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/46 "2006-07-14T22:58:37Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] We don’t have to obey history. History is our _bitch_. [/QUOTE] I have to say, I’m gobsmacked that you would say a thing like that. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/47 "2006-07-14T23:03:38Z")
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac] I have to say, I’m gobsmacked that you would say a thing like that. [/QUOTE] Yeah, see, you Jews should know your place. Pushy! ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/48 "2006-07-14T23:24:38Z")
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac] I have to say, I’m gobsmacked that you would say a thing like that. [/QUOTE] Read his _whole_ post. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/49 "2006-07-14T23:30:57Z")
[QUOTE=foolsguinea] When Hamas’s terrorism fails as did Arafat’s, true warriors may finally arise & sweep the Jews out, to a man. [/QUOTE] Doubt it. It takes a lot more than fighting spirit to make a **successful** warrior, and what it takes, the Palestinians ain’t got. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/50 "2006-07-15T00:37:09Z")
**\<** Add it to your spellcheck. Israel: my experience is that the women are uninhibited. That counts for a lot. And you can lurk on the SD and find the right platitudes to get onside; cheaper than booze. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/51 "2006-07-15T00:39:01Z")
[QUOTE=Sevastopol] Israel: my experience is that the women are uninhibited. That counts for a lot. And you can lurk on the SD and find the right platitudes to get onside; cheaper than booze. [/QUOTE] 😕 That might help you get laid if you visit Tel Aviv for business or pleasure, but what else does it “count for”? ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/52 "2006-07-15T00:40:04Z")
**^** Obviously thataway. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/53 "2006-07-15T00:43:29Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] 😕 That might help you get laid if you visit Tel Aviv for business or pleasure, but what else does it “count for”? [/QUOTE] Was this not a debate on the proper uses of testosterone? I am occasionally in error. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/54 "2006-07-15T00:53:35Z")
[QUOTE=Sevastopol] I am occasionally in error. [/QUOTE] Welcome to another occasion. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/55 "2006-07-15T01:07:10Z")
[QUOTE=Aeschines] Welcome to another occasion. [/QUOTE] Not on the evidence of the thread thus far and presently. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/56 "2006-07-15T01:09:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > None of those countries are going to welcome the Palestinians. Syria won’t even grant citizenship to the Palestinians they’ve got. IIRC, in Syria many Palestinians are still living in “refugee camps” decades after they arrived. Well, everyone knows that. You can tell because there have been so many ‘peace’ organizations protesting in front of Syrian embassies. And so many young American girls standing in front of Syrian tanks, and so many editorials on how Syria must deal with the problem… Oh, wait. None of that happened. Just like the condemnation that never happened when Palestinians were expelled from other Arab countries. Israel must be _special_. I wonder what it could be? In fact, there are almost as many Palestinian refugees in Jordan as there are Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank. And almost 300,000 living in refugee camps. Another 130,000 or so are in refugee camps in Lebanon. The refugees in Lebanon cannot become citizens, they have no access to public health care or education, have no civil rights, and are not allowed to compete with Lebanese for many jobs. As a result, they have about 40% unemployment. Where’s the left marching against that? Where was the support for the Palestinians when Kuwait uprooted 400,000 of them and expelled them from the country in 1991? [QUOTE=Alessan] First they told us that you can’t worship ONE god, you have to worship MANY gods. We showed the world different. Then they told us that a tribal nation cannot continue to exsit as a coherent religion and culture after being banished from its homeland. Again, we showed the world different. THEN they told us we couldn’t just get up and start a nation out of scratch. And once more, we showed the world that it was talking out of its ass. Now you’re telling us that we can’t exist indefinitely surrounded by hostile nations. Well… we’ll just see about that, shall we? Don’t write us off yet. This is us we’re talking about. We don’t have to obey history. History is our _bitch_. [/QUOTE] \ Look, here’s the deal in a nutshell. When Israel was created, the Palestinians were offered a state. The other Arab countries told them not to take it, because once the Israelis were in charge the Arab world was going to smash them and take the land back. Well, that didn’t happen. Despite overwhelming forces and unprovoked wars, Israel kicked ass. This _humiliated_ the Arabs. Not only did the hated Jews succeed in creating a state next door to them, but their economy was booming, previous crappy land was being turned into valuable real-estate, and the Arabs had been smashed on the battlefield. So the hatred of Israel grew. In the meantime, the Palestians became very useful. It’s no surprise that they aren’t welcome in Arab countries - they’re far more useful as pawns. By parking a dislocated people on Israel’s doorstep, and then preaching hatred, they stuck a thorn in Israel’s side that can’t be removed. None of those countries REALLY care about the Palestinians - if they were being abused by fellow Muslims, no one would care. And since the Arabs have learned that they have no hope of defeating Israel on the battlefield, they’ve evolved their strategy into a proxy war. Iran creates Hezbollah, Syria Hamas. They fund and train terrorists, and feed bombs and weapons to the Palestinians. So these nations stay at arms length, and their proxies continually attack Israel and then fade back into the civilian population. Israel goes after them, the world condemns Israel, Israel withdraws, and then the proxies come out of the woodwork and do it again. And again. And again. But then they overreached. Hezbollah became so strong it became part of the ruling power in Lebanon, and Hamas became the government in the Palestinian territories. So suddenly they are no longer at arms-length. I think Israel’s calculus is this: First, they withdrew from Gaza, to take away the Palestinian Casus Belli for continued attacks. If the attacks then continue, Israel can then claim that A) they are wholly unprovoked, and B) go after the actual governments, since the terrorists are now part of the government. And don’t be too surprised to see this escalate into Israeli attacks on Iran and Syria. Because here’s the thing - as long as the thugs in those two nations can continue their proxy war with impugnity, why wouldn’t they? What do the Iranians care if some Lebanese are killed in their war with Israel? The Syrians don’t care how many Palestinians are killed from Israeli reprisals - in fact they might welcome it because it helps bring world opinion down on Israel. So maybe Israel is thinking that the time is now to finally make these countries pay. The only way to stop the proxy wars is to make it really, really expensive to engage in one. Right now, Israel has about the most world opinion on its side as it’s going to get. It has George Bush in the White House - all bets are off depending on who the next president is. Iran still does not have nukes, but will in a few years. So this may be their window to finally take a bold step and strike back at the heart of the problem. I wouldn’t be surprised to see an attack on Iran’s nuclear facilities, or on Syrian military or economic targets. Because if the current state of affairs is allowed to continue indefinitely, one of these days the rocket that gets lobbed over the Israeli border is going to have a nuclear warhead on it. Of course, it will come from a ‘non-state actor’, and Iran will have just enough of a cockamamie cover story to get the anti-semitic side of the world going along with it. But it’ll happen. Oh, and as far as the Iraqi people go, don’t be so sure that they’ll fall in line with the rest of the Arab world on this. They remember the Palestinians cheering for Saddam. They’ve suffered under terrorism, and have no love for terrorist organizations. There’s a very interesting post from an Iraqi blogger at [Iraq The Model](http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/2006/07/singing-out-of-flock.html), in which he translates forum conversations from the BBC’s Arabic forums. The comments from Iraqis are by and large neutral to pro-Israel, the comments from the rest of the Arabs very anti-Israel. And one interesting tidbit is that the other Arab messages always seem to touch on the themes of dignity and honor, while the Iraqis never mention it. A difference in mental outlook that seemed very interesting to me. The Iraqis seem much more modern and less tribal in their way of thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/57 "2006-07-15T01:18:34Z")
Nice post, **Sam**. Anything to contribute, **Seva** , or are you “too cool for school”? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/58 "2006-07-15T01:38:13Z")
Dang Sam - you summed up almost every waking thought I had on the subject in one post. You left out Israel’s opportunity to attack Iran’s nuclear program. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/59 "2006-07-15T01:43:45Z")
Dang Sam - you summed up almost every waking thought I had on the subject in one post. You left out Israel’s opportunity to attack Iran’s nuclear program. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/60 "2006-07-15T01:47:49Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] Well, everyone knows that. You can tell because there have been so many ‘peace’ organizations protesting in front of Syrian embassies. And so many young American girls standing in front of Syrian tanks, and so many editorials on how Syria must deal with the problem… Oh, wait. None of that happened. Just like the condemnation that never happened when Palestinians were expelled from other Arab countries. Israel must be _special_. I wonder what it could be? In fact, there are almost as many Palestinian refugees in Jordan as there are Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank. And almost 300,000 living in refugee camps. Another 130,000 or so are in refugee camps in Lebanon. The refugees in Lebanon cannot become citizens, they have no access to public health care or education, have no civil rights, and are not allowed to compete with Lebanese for many jobs. As a result, they have about 40% unemployment. Where’s the left marching against that? Where was the support for the Palestinians when Kuwait uprooted 400,000 of them and expelled them from the country in 1991. [/QUOTE] All true. When come back, bring relevance. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429.md?page=4)