# How to think correctly about Israel and Palestine **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 14, 2006, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429 "2006-07-14T04:08:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/101 "2006-07-16T01:53:41Z")
[QUOTE=Shayna] When Britain set out to establish a “home” for the Jews following their mass murder in Europe, those Jews who did emmigrate **did not “forcibly remove”** the local Arabs from their homes. [/QUOTE] . . . No cite, but I think I’ve read that in many cases, they did just exactly that; there were even some massacres of those who wouldn’t leave. (And then in other cases the Arabs left willingly, hoping to return after the fighting.) ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/102 "2006-07-16T02:27:05Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] . . . No cite, but I think I’ve read that in many cases, they did just exactly that; there were even some massacres of those who wouldn’t leave. (And then in other cases the Arabs left willingly, hoping to return after the fighting.) [/QUOTE] Cite? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/103 "2006-07-16T02:37:39Z")
[QUOTE=Aeschines] Cite? [/QUOTE] Like I said. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/104 "2006-07-16T02:38:33Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] . . . No cite, but I think I’ve read that in many cases, they did just exactly that; [/quote] It’s probably rather doubtful that you read that. I too would like a cite. [QUOTE=BrainGlutton] there were even some massacres of those who wouldn’t leave. [/quote] You are, perhaps, confusing events during the siege of Jerusalem and Operation Nachshon with the rest of events. Several towns that were guarding the road were, indeed, cleared out. To my knowledge the people there were not massacred, though. Do you have a cite that they were? Maybe you are confusing Deir Yassin with the rest of the war? [QUOTE=BrainGlutton] (And then in other cases the Arabs left willingly, hoping to return after the fighting.) [/QUOTE] And due to a calculated effort on the Arab’s side to put out false propaganda about Deir Yassin that said the Jews were raping the Palestinian women. That little bit of propaganda helped the tide of refugees like little else. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/105 "2006-07-16T02:39:24Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] . . . No cite, but I think I’ve read that in many cases, they did just exactly that; there were even some massacres of those who wouldn’t leave. (And then in other cases the Arabs left willingly, hoping to return after the fighting.) [/QUOTE] Not during the period I’m referring to (there have been periods throughout history of these lands being forcibly taken by a _lot_ of different parties) – the period that actually established Israel’s independence as a nation. I’m laid up sick with a cold and taking medication, so I’m not mentally up for an in-depth debate at the moment (and my husband just brought my dinner), so I’ll just direct you [to this cite](http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm) for as neutral a general history as is likely to be found, and to this section, specifically (all emphasis mine): > [@](#): > > Pre-Independence - During the period before Israeli independence was declared, two armies of Arab irregular volunteers, let by Haj Amin El Husseini in the Jerusalem area, and by Fawzi El Kaukji in the Galilee, placed their fighters in Arab towns and conducted various aggressive operations against the Jewish towns and village under the eyes of the British. Kaukji and his irregulars were allowed into Palestine from Syria by the British, with the agreement that he would not engage in military actions, but he soon broke the agreement and attacked across the Galilee. The Arab irregulars were met by the Zionist underground army, the Haganah, and by the underground groups of the “dissident” factions, Irgun and Lehi. > > In Jerusalem, Arab riots broke out on November 30 and December 1 1947. Palestinian irregulars cut off the supply of food, water and fuel to Jerusalem during a long siege that began in late 1947. Fighting and violence broke out immediately throughout the country, including ambushes of transportation, the Jerusalem blockade, riots such as the Haifa refinery riots, and massacres that took place at Gush Etzion (by Palestinians) and in Deir Yassin (by Jews). **Arab Palestinians began leaving their towns and villages to escape the fighting. Notably, most of the Arab population of Haifa left in March and April of 1948, despite pleas by both Jewish and British officials to stay.** > > The British did little to stop the fighting, but the scale of hostilities was limited by lack of arms and trained soldiers on both sides. Initially, the Palestinians had a clear advantage, and a Haganah intelligence report of March, 1948 indicated that the situation was critical, especially in the Jerusalem area. It is generally agreed that April 1948 marked a turning point in the fighting before the invasion by Arab armies, in favor of the initially outnumbered and outgunned Jewish forces. To break the siege of Jerusalem, the Haganah prematurely activated “Plan Dalet” - a plan prepared for general defense that was supposed to have been implemented when the British had left. It required use of regular armed forces and army tactics, fighting in the open, rather than as an underground. It also envisioned the “temporary” evacuation of Arab civilians from towns in certain strategic areas, such as the Jerusalem corridor. This provision has been cited as evidence that the Zionists planned for the exodus and expulsion of Arab civilians in advance. > > The Haganah mounted its first full scale operation, Operation Nahshon, using 1,500 troops. It attacked the Arab villages of Qoloniyah and Qastel, **occupied by Arab irregular forces after the villagers had fled** , on the road to Jerusalem and temporarily broke the siege, allowing convoys of supplies to reach the city. Qastel fell on April 8, and the key Palestinian military commander, Abdel Khader Al-Husseini was killed there. Qoloniyeh fell on April 11. In the north, Fawzi El-Kaukji’s “Salvation Army” was beaten back at the battle of Mishmar Haemeq on April 12, 1948. These successes helped convince US President Truman that the Jews would not be overrun by Arab forces, and he abandoned the trusteeship proposal that the US had put before the UN earlier. Following attacks by Arab irregulars, the Irgun attacked the Arab town of Jaffa, just south of Tel Aviv. **Palestinians fled en masse despite the pleas of the British to remain**. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/106 "2006-07-16T02:39:51Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Like I said. [/QUOTE] Well, here’s the internet. Go find a cite to support your claim. It’s rather irresponsible to make a statement that there were numerous massacres and then refuse to provide a scrap of proof. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/107 "2006-07-16T02:42:13Z")
[Well, here’s one, but it ain’t what you’d call an unbiased source.](http://www.palestinehistory.com/massacre.htm) [Here’s the Wikipedia’s take, FWIW.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre) Also a [list of villages (Arab and Jewish) depopulated during the 1948 war.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_villages_depopulated_during_the_1948_Arab-Israeli_war) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/108 "2006-07-16T02:46:28Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] It’s rather irresponsible to make a statement that there were numerous massacres and then refuse to provide a scrap of proof. [/QUOTE] I said **some** massacres. **Many** expulsions, which is different, if no more mathematically precise. And even more voluntary exodi, as mentioned above. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/109 "2006-07-16T04:05:29Z")
Mark Twain, BTW, knew how to think correctly about Israel and Palestine before either was ever founded. From [The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn:](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/76/76-h/p4.htm#c18) > [@](#): > > Soon as I could get Buck down by the corn-cribs under the trees by ourselves, I says: > > “Did you want to kill him, Buck?” > > “Well, I bet I did.” > > “What did he do to you?” > > “Him? He never done nothing to me.” > > “Well, then, what did you want to kill him for?” > > “Why, nothing—only it’s on account of the feud.” > > “What’s a feud?” > > “Why, where was you raised? Don’t you know what a feud is?” > > “Never heard of it before—tell me about it.” > > “Well,” says Buck, “a feud is this way: A man has a quarrel with another man, and kills him; then that other man’s brother kills HIM; then the other brothers, on both sides, goes for one another; then the COUSINS chip in—and by and by everybody’s killed off, and there ain’t no more feud. But it’s kind of slow, and takes a long time.” > > “Has this one been going on long, Buck?” > > “Well, I should RECKON! It started thirty year ago, or som’ers along there. There was trouble 'bout something, and then a lawsuit to settle it; and the suit went agin one of the men, and so he up and shot the man that won the suit—which he would naturally do, of course. Anybody would.” > > “What was the trouble about, Buck?—land?” > > “I reckon maybe—I don’t know.” > > “Well, who done the shooting? Was it a Grangerford or a Shepherdson?” > > “Laws, how do I know? It was so long ago.” > > “Don’t anybody know?” > > “Oh, yes, pa knows, I reckon, and some of the other old people; but they don’t know now what the row was about in the first place.” Or, to quote a briefer Southern aphorism: “First, 'twas the Hatfields; and first, 'twas the McCoys. Or maybe 'twas the other way about.” ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/110 "2006-07-16T06:37:52Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] [Well, here’s one, but it ain’t what you’d call an unbiased source.](http://www.palestinehistory.com/massacre.htm) [/quote] Or a very thorough one. Or a well cited one. Or one with even a pretense of accuracy. Look at how many times “Jews groups” appears as the people responsible. That’s some hard hitting investigative reporting, there. They also claim "An account of this barbaric massacre was given by Jacques de Reynier, the Chief Delegate of the International Red Cross , who was able to reach the village and witness the aftermath of the massacre: “Three hundred persons” he said, “were massacred … without any military reason or provocation of any kind; old men women, children, newly-born were savagely murdered with grenades and knives by Jewish troops of the Irgun, entirely under the control of their chiefs.” Here is the [actual memo.](http://www.ariga.com/peacewatch/dy/redcross.htm) Can you find the words “military”, “provocation”, “murder”, “born” in it? Because I sure as heck can’t. That makes the possibility of a direct quote dealing with military provocation for the murder of the newly-born rather suspect, eh? Yes, it’s a translation, but can you find any close synonyms for those words, either? Perhaps there’s another quote they’re confusing this with? Maybe there’s another memo? [QUOTE=BrainGlutton] [Here’s the Wikipedia’s take, FWIW.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre) [/quote] I wouldn’t say it’s worth all that much. Even if you want to split hairs that there were “some” instead of “numerous” massacres, Deir Yassin is still a single event. And, in any case, we’ve argued this one to death already in GD. Here’s one [well cited article](http://www.deiryassin.org/denierspr-980309-99.html) that might be a jumping off point. [Likewise, this is quite good.](http://www.stanforddaily.com/article/2004/2/27/theDeirYassinMassacreIsNotTheCauseOfTheArabExodus) And [another](http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=18072). If you want to debate Deir Yassin, then sure, game on. But if that’s all you’re going to debate, you should change your claim for massacres, to one single one. And then, hopefully, at least admit that the events at Deir Yassin are anything but cut and dry. [QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Also a [list of villages (Arab and Jewish) depopulated during the 1948 war.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_villages_depopulated_during_the_1948_Arab-Israeli_war) [/QUOTE] Is there something I’m missing? Maybe I haven’t flashed to Wiki’s format… but that just looks like a list of names, and no elaboration is given unless I missed it somewhere. Besides, the fact that a town’s population left does not, at all, imply that they were massacred. Come on, surely if your claims are true you can find cites much more easily? Oh, and, the ‘feud’? Pr’aps it might have something to do with almost five decades of clearly stated genocidal intent. Perhaps. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/111 "2006-07-16T08:45:44Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] The conflict has a wider significance because the whole world thinks and acts as if it does. Millions of Muslims living far away from Jerusalem are affronted by the existence of non-Muslim state on what they consider the indefeasible territory of Dar al-Islam; and seeing infidels ruling over Muslims makes it all the more galling – in their world-view, that’s **never** supposed to happen! … heat up so many tempers … [/QUOTE] Affront and temper are all very well and \*\* Aeschines\*\* notes much the same. These are coffee conversations. Where though does that change the unimportance of Israel? Outside those narrow boundaries, what is at stake? Again contrast the situation in Iraq. Or in the alternative taking **Sam’s** invitiation to wild conjecture of murder unleashed - that popular myth so often quashed: cf **Astorian**. Allowing such an event, what significant index or measure would do so much as blip? Fewer kindly souramis to comfort the weary traveller and …? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/112 "2006-07-16T08:52:12Z")
I didn’t understand a word of that. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/113 "2006-07-16T08:56:24Z")
Glad I’m not the only one **Sam**. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/114 "2006-07-16T09:06:48Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] I didn’t understand a word of that. [/QUOTE] Nevermind. There’s a thread [over there](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=378482&page=8&pp=50) about faux lesbians, ages 15-30. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/115 "2006-07-16T13:42:05Z")
Much has been said about the Palestinians voluntarily pulling out of what became Israel. Suppose people showed up tomorrow in, say, Redondo Beach, CA and announced that in one month this area was going to become part of a newly created nation. And, by the way, this was going to be a religiously based nation and some of the more extreme interpreters of that religion would have a big say in the laws and how and upon who they would be enforced. And let’s say that religion was antithetical to your belief in your religion. If you left would it be entirely “voluntary?” ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/116 "2006-07-16T17:23:12Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] Suppose people showed up tomorrow in, say, Redondo Beach, CA and announced that in one month this area was going to become part of a newly created nation. And, by the way, this was going to be a religiously based nation and some of the more extreme interpreters of that religion would have a big say in the laws and how and upon who they would be enforced. And let’s say that religion was antithetical to your belief in your religion. [/QUOTE] We’d kick their ass. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/117 "2006-07-16T17:44:08Z")
[QUOTE=Sevastopol] Nevermind. There’s a thread [over there](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=378482&page=8&pp=50) about faux lesbians, ages 15-30. [/QUOTE] Was this comment supposed to mean something? Were you attempting to derail this thread or did you post thinking you were in a different thread? ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/118 "2006-07-16T17:54:43Z")
Yes. No, no. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/119 "2006-07-16T19:07:03Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] Much has been said about the Palestinians voluntarily pulling out of what became Israel. Suppose people showed up tomorrow in, say, Redondo Beach, CA and announced that in one month this area was going to become part of a newly created nation. And, by the way, this was going to be a religiously based nation and some of the more extreme interpreters of that religion would have a big say in the laws and how and upon who they would be enforced. And let’s say that religion was antithetical to your belief in your religion. If you left would it be entirely “voluntary?” [/QUOTE] What a lousy analogy. A better one would be if there was land in North America that was occupied equally by two tribes of native Americans, and had been for a long time. Because one tribe of natives had been persecuted and exterminated in other places, they demanded that in THIS place they be allowed to set up their own country. So, the world offers a compromise - the land will be split up. Each tribe gets their own autonomous country. The first tribe says, “That would be fine. Oh, and you people from the other tribe are welcome to live here if you want.” But the big country next door, which is extremely racist against the first tribe, says, “Hey you other people - say no. Get out of the way, and we’ll roll the tanks in, kill all the troublemakers, and then you can have the whole thing.” So the other residents pack up and leave, despite the first tribe’s pleas to stay and live in peace. Then America attacks, but the new country proves to be surprisingly strong, and the attack fails. So the big racist country says to the dislocated people, “Sorry. Here - you camp out on the border, since we don’t want you either. I’m sure you’ll get the place some day.” ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429/120 "2006-07-16T19:56:11Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] What a lousy analogy. A better one would be if there was land in North America that was occupied equally by two tribes of native Americans, and had been for a long time. Because one tribe of natives had been persecuted and exterminated in other places, they demanded that in THIS place they be allowed to set up their own country. So, the world offers a compromise - the land will be split up. Each tribe gets their own autonomous country. The first tribe says, “That would be fine. Oh, and you people from the other tribe are welcome to live here if you want.” But the big country next door, which is extremely racist against the first tribe, says, “Hey you other people - say no. Get out of the way, and we’ll roll the tanks in, kill all the troublemakers, and then you can have the whole thing.” So the other residents pack up and leave, despite the first tribe’s pleas to stay and live in peace. Then America attacks, but the new country proves to be surprisingly strong, and the attack fails. So the big racist country says to the dislocated people, “Sorry. Here - you camp out on the border, since we don’t want you either. I’m sure you’ll get the place some day.” [/QUOTE] If you say so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-think-correctly-about-israel-and-palestine/364429.md?page=7)