How to think correctly about Israel and Palestine

[Sam_Stone]

@David Simmons

If you say so.

No, history says so. You don’t just get to make shit up. The creation of Israel bears no resemblance to your scenario of a bunch of people just arriving in a sovereign nation and announcing that they were creating a new country and the current citizens could go screw themselves. The situation was much more complex than that. The Jews had lived there as long as anyone else. They didn’t just ‘arrive’. Jerusalem, for example, had a majority Jewish population in the 1800’s. All had a history going back thousands of years. And the people in the region had been split up into numerous artificial countries like crazy over the previous 20 years, for many different reasons. And it wasn’t just a bunch of people deciding to set up their own country - it was the international community setting up TWO countries for two different populations, to try and give each their own measure of security and autonomy.

The entire area in question was part of the Ottoman empire, and not a Palestinian state in the first place. It was occupied by the British as part of the British mandate after WWI, and as early as 1917 the Jews were promised a national home in the area in the Balfour Declaration. This was right around the time that many other countries were being parceled out.

Far from your analogy of the Jews just ‘arriving in’ another country, what actually happened was that after WWII when the British mandate was about to come to an end, a decision had to be made about what kind of countries would be created in its wake. Either way, a new state was about to be created. The two state solution was a compromise - the Jews didn’t get everything they wanted. For example, Jerusalem was to remain under UN administration and accessible to both sides, even though it had a majority Jewish population. The Arabs, on the other hand, rejected the plan completely and over the next few decades launched wars of aggression against Israel.

And by the way, an equal number of Jewish refugees were created as a result of the 1948 war as there were Palestinian refugees, as Arab countries kicked Jews out of their countries and expropriated their property. The difference is that the state of Israel welcomed the refugees in, while the Arab nations refused to absorb the Palestinians. Another difference is that the Palestinians left voluntary, and those who stayed were given civil rights and protections by the Israelis (even serving in the Knesset), while the Jews in Arab countries were forced to flee at gunpoint or under threat of severe persecution.

Many of the Jewish communities that were destroyed by the Arabs had been there for thousands of years, and had as much right to claim those areas as their ‘homeland’ as the Palestinians did. Yet I don’t see a lot of handwringing about that.

Your analogy amounts to little more than a very simplistic and tendentous spin on a complex topic.

[The_Flying_Dutchman]

Okay, here’s my take. First of all, before there was any Jewish state in the area designated Palestine, Jews were being persecuted and slaughtered in Palestine and other Arab lands.

Lets start with Iraq.Babylon for example. Check the Old Testament
Or Iran. Persia for example. Check the Old Testament
Or lets skip for several millenia. Without any serius cites that I can come up with you Palestinian sympathizers may assume that Jews had a great old time east of the Mediteranean prior to the 20th century.

Now lets go back to the turn of the century from the 1800s to the 1900s.

In fact, lets talk 1922, the first census taken of Palestine. From Wikipedia my source for all quotes in this post.

At this time (1922) the population of Palestine consisted of approximately 589,200 Muslims, 83,800 Jews, 71,500 Christians and 7,600 others (1922 census [1]).

So 1 in 6 people in Palestine were Jews! Don’t tell me that they had abandoned their homeland. Everything was fine I guess as long as the Jewish culture wasn’t a threat. Maybe that was the way it was. Who knows. But ever since the area was available to the free press we have the following:

Under the leadership of Haj Amin al-Husayni, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, the local Arabs rebelled against the British, and attacked the growing Jewish population repeatedly. These sporadic attacks began with the riots in Palestine of 1920 and Jaffa riots (or “Hurani Riots”) of 1921. During the riots in Palestine of 1929, 67 Jews were massacred in Hebron, and the survivors were driven out.

Sounds like an Intifada to me. Oh wait, this is pre 1948 borders!
A little later

The death of the preacher Shaykh Izz ad-Din al-Qassam at the hands of the British police near Jenin in November 1935 generated widespread outrage and huge crowds accompanied Qassam’s body to his grave in Haifa. A few months later a spontaneous Arab national general strike broke out. This lasted until October 1936. During the summer of that year thousands of Jewish-farmed acres and orchards were destroyed, Jews were attacked and killed and some Jewish communities, such as those in Beisan and Acre, fled to safer areas.

Then we have the Great Arab Revolt.

In the wake of the strike and the Peel Commission recommendation of partition of the country into a small Jewish state and an Arab state to be attached to Jordan, an armed uprising spread through the country. Over the next 18 months the British lost control of Jerusalem, Nablus and Hebron. During this period from 1936-1939, known as the Great Arab Revolt or the “Great Uprising”, British forces, supported by 6,000 armed Jewish auxiliary police,[3] suppressed the widespread riots with overwhelming force. This resulted in the deaths of 5,000 Palestinians and the wounding of 10,000. In total 10 per cent of the adult male population was killed, wounded, imprisoned, or exiled (see Khalidi, 2001). The Jewish population suffered 400 killed; the British 200

So what is my point? Jews have every right to live in Israel. They’ve lived there all along. The idea that The Palestinians and Arabs might accept a Jewish state is total bullshit. They massacred Jews before 1948 and they continued ever since and will continue to do so. One hundred years of history in a culture steeped and stuck in the seventh century attests to this claim.

Think about this. These Arab militants are no different than the KKK. If the Jews would only accept minority status and heel to Sharia they might be tolerated. Just like niggers were tolerated prior to the civil war.But no fuckin way will they subject themselves to uppity Jews in power…

America rid itself from the KKK to a large extent. The "KKK’ in the middle east is thriving. I hold the average Muslim-Arab accountable, and that is why I don’t get to damn concerned about colateral civilian casualties in the Arab population.

Hey its pretty simple to me. You fuck with Jews then you better accept the consequences. Fortunately the Jews have consequences to deliver.

Fuck the KKK. Fuck Middle East Islam. Ra Ra Israel.

Whatever happened to the other 10 tribes of Israel? Do you think they might have tried to negotiate?

[The_Flying_Dutchman]

My apologies to all concerned. I thought I was in the Pit.

[David_Simmons]

@Sam Stone

No, history says so. You don’t just get to make shit up. The creation of Israel bears no resemblance to your scenario of a bunch of people just arriving in a sovereign nation and announcing that they were creating a new country and the current citizens could go screw themselves. The situation was much more complex than that. The Jews had lived there as long as anyone else. They didn’t just ‘arrive’. Jerusalem, for example, had a majority Jewish population in the 1800’s. All had a history going back thousands of years. And the people in the region had been split up into numerous artificial countries like crazy over the previous 20 years, for many different reasons. And it wasn’t just a bunch of people deciding to set up their own country - it was the international community setting up TWO countries for two different populations, to try and give each their own measure of security and autonomy.

The entire area in question was part of the Ottoman empire, and not a Palestinian state in the first place. It was occupied by the British as part of the British mandate after WWI, and as early as 1917 the Jews were promised a national home in the area in the Balfour Declaration. This was right around the time that many other countries were being parceled out.

Far from your analogy of the Jews just ‘arriving in’ another country, what actually happened was that after WWII when the British mandate was about to come to an end, a decision had to be made about what kind of countries would be created in its wake. Either way, a new state was about to be created. The two state solution was a compromise - the Jews didn’t get everything they wanted. For example, Jerusalem was to remain under UN administration and accessible to both sides, even though it had a majority Jewish population. The Arabs, on the other hand, rejected the plan completely and over the next few decades launched wars of aggression against Israel.

And by the way, an equal number of Jewish refugees were created as a result of the 1948 war as there were Palestinian refugees, as Arab countries kicked Jews out of their countries and expropriated their property. The difference is that the state of Israel welcomed the refugees in, while the Arab nations refused to absorb the Palestinians. Another difference is that the Palestinians left voluntary, and those who stayed were given civil rights and protections by the Israelis (even serving in the Knesset), while the Jews in Arab countries were forced to flee at gunpoint or under threat of severe persecution.

Many of the Jewish communities that were destroyed by the Arabs had been there for thousands of years, and had as much right to claim those areas as their ‘homeland’ as the Palestinians did. Yet I don’t see a lot of handwringing about that.

Your analogy amounts to little more than a very simplistic and tendentous spin on a complex topic.

OK, I give up. The international community, living elsewhere, decided to establish new countries and many of of the residents of the area objected. The idea was put through anyway and therefore all the fault is on one side. Satisfied?

[Aeschines]

@The Flying Dutchman

My apologies to all concerned. I thought I was in the Pit.

Good post, though.

[Aeschines]

@David Simmons

OK, I give up. The international community, living elsewhere, decided to establish new countries and many of of the residents of the area objected. The idea was put through anyway and therefore all the fault is on one side. Satisfied?

No, nothing you’ve said in the thread has made any sense.

[Bryan_Ekers]

@Loopydude

Albert Einstein was as much behind the foundation of the State of Israel as any Haredi partisan, and despite being an avowed secularist, was invited to be the nation’s prime minister.

Actually, he was invited to assume the almost completely ceremonial head-of-state office of President. The nation’s executive power lies with the Prime Minister.

[Fear_Itself]

@Aeschines

No, nothing you’ve said in the thread has made any sense.

Says the kettle to the pot.

[BrainGlutton]

Actually, it appears like the Israel-Palestine situation is exactly like the Sheperdson-Grangerford feud if every other family in town had taken sides.

[Dubious_Weasle]

While my feelings on the Israeli/Palestinian issue are mixed I really don’t get why people keep coming back to “they voluntarily left” as if it means something.

Yes, they fled an area that they believed was about to become a war-zone. Whether attacking countries encouraged them to go and whether defending countries encouraged them to stay is irrelevant.

They fled a war-zone. That’s what refugees do. They hoped, and I believe rightfully so, to come back home after the war was over.

[Aeschines]

@Fear Itself

Says the kettle to the pot.

Don’t mention pot or the thread will be closed.

[Shayna]

@David Simmons

OK, I give up. The international community, living elsewhere, decided to establish new countries and many of of the residents of the area objected. The idea was put through anyway and therefore all the fault is on one side. Satisfied?

With all due respect, Mr. Simmons, you’re just being willful on top of being willfully ignorant of an extremely complex and intricate history. And frankly, it’s obvious that you haven’t bothered to take the time to read the link I posted, which gives a rather thorough and straightforward accounting of that history. It doesn’t even remotely resemble your misrepresentations, let alone anything so black and white as you paint it.

The Jews have a history of living on, owning and ruling that area that dates back as far as 8,000 B.C.!

Palestine has been settled continuously for tens of thousands of years. Fossil remains have been found of Homo Erectus, Neanderthal and transitional types between Neanderthal and modern man. Archeologists have found hybrid Emer wheat at Jericho dating from before 8,000 B.C., making it one of the oldest sites of agricultural activity in the world. Amorites, Canaanites, and other Semitic peoples related to the Phoenicians of Tyre entered the area about 2000 B.C. The area became known as the Land of Canaan.

. . .

The archeological record indicates that the Jewish people evolved out of native Cana’anite peoples and invading tribes.

Jews. Native. 8,000 years B.C.

According to the Bible, Moses led the Israelites, or a portion of them, out of Egypt. Under Joshua, they conquered the tribes and city states of Canaan. Based on biblical traditions, it is estimated that king David conquered Jerusalem about 1000 B.C. and established an Israelite kingdom over much of Canaan including parts of Transjordan. The kingdom was divided into Judea in the south and Israel in the north following the death of David’s son, Solomon. Jerusalem remained the center of Jewish sovereignty and of Jewish worship whenever the Jews exercised sovereignty over the country in the subsequent period, up to the Jewish revolt in 133 AD.

Jews. Sovereign rule over the land. Since thousands of years ago.

The Assyrians conquered Israel in 722 or 721 B.C. The Babylonians conquered Judah around 586 B.C. They destroyed Solomon’s Temple in Jerusalem, and exiled a large number of Jews. About 50 years later, the Persian king Cyrus conquered Babylonia. Cyrus allowed a group of Jews from Babylonia to rebuild Jerusalem and settle in it. However, a large number of Jews remained in Babylonia, forming the first Jewish Diaspora. After the reestablishment of a Jewish state or protectorate, the Babylonian exiles maintained contact with authorities there.

More wars. More conquering. Jews exiled. More conquering. Reestablishment of a Jewish state.

The Persians ruled the land from about 530 to 331 B.C. Alexander the Great then conquered the Persian Empire. After Alexander’s death in 323 B.C., his generals divided the empire. One of these generals, Seleucus, founded a dynasty that gained control of much of Palestine about 200 B.C. At first, the new rulers, called Seleucids, allowed the practice of Judaism. But later, one of the kings, Antiochus IV, tried to prohibit it. In 167 B.C., the Jews revolted under the leadership of the Maccabeans and either drove the Seleucids out of Palestine or at least established a large degree of autonomy, forming a kingdom with its capital in Jerusalem. The kingdom received Roman “protection” when Judah Maccabee was made a “friend of the Roman senate and people” in 164 B.C. according to the records of Roman historians.

Even more conquering. Jews once again persecuted – not allowed to practice their religion. Empires divided. Revolts.

The land was divided into districts of Judea, Galilee, Peraea and a small trans-Jordanian section, each of which eventually came under direct Roman control. The Romans called the large central area of the land, which included Jerusalem, Judea. Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem, Judea, in the early years of Roman rule. Roman rulers put down Jewish revolts in about A.D. 70 and A.D. 132. In A.D. 135, the Romans drove the Jews out of Jerusalem. The Romans named the area Palaestina, at about this time. The name Palaestina, which became Palestine in English, is derived from Herodotus, who used the term Palaistine Syria to refer to the entire southern part of Syria, meaning “Philistine Syria.” Most of the Jews who continued to practice their religion fled or were forcibly exiled from Palestine, eventually forming a second Jewish Diaspora. However, Jewish communities continued to exist in Galilee, the northernmost part of Palestine. Palestine was governed by the Roman Empire until the fourth century A.D. (300’s) and then by the Byzantine Empire. In time, Christianity spread to most of Palestine. The population consisted of Jewish converts to Christianity and paganism, peoples imported by the Romans, and others who had probably inhabited Palestine continuously.

More division of land. Now the Romans control it. Practicing Jews driven out of their native lands.

(Underlining theirs)

During the seventh century (A.D. 600’s), Muslim Arab armies moved north from Arabia to conquer most of the Middle East, including Palestine. Jerusalem was conquered about 638 by the Caliph Umar (Omar) who gave his protection to its inhabitants. Muslim powers controlled the region until the early 1900’s. The rulers allowed Christians and Jews to keep their religions. However, most of the local population gradually accepted Islam and the Arab-Islamic culture of their rulers. Jerusalem became holy to Muslims as the site where, according to tradition, Muhammed ascended to heaven after a miraculous overnight ride on his horse Al-Buraq. The al-Aqsa mosque was built on the site generally regarded as the area of the Jewish temples.

Now the Muslim Arabs move in for the first time in known history. Jerusalem only then became holy to the Muslim Arabs. Thousands and thousands of years after the Jewish Temples stood on those sacred lands, the conquering Arabs built their temple.

Then came the Turks. Then the Fatimid rulers of Egypt. Then the Christain Crusaders.

During the post-crusade period, crusaders often raided the coast of Palestine. To deny the crusaders gains from these raids, the Muslims pulled their people back from the coasts and destroyed coastal towns and farms. This depopulated and impoverished the coast of Palestine for hundreds of years.

Arabs destroyed their own towns. Depopulated them for hundreds of years.

The Mamelukes ruled. The Ottomons ruled. The Turkish Sultan invited Spanish Jews being persecuted by the Catholic inquisition to settle there. Then came Napolean and both Arabs and Jews fled. Both come back. Palestinian Arabs revolt against Ottoman and Egyptian rule. Jews continue to return.

During World War I (1914-1918), the Ottoman Empire joined Germany and Austria-Hungary against the Allies. An Ottoman military government ruled Palestine. The war was hard on both Jewish and Arab populations, owing to outbreaks of cholera and typhus; however, it was more difficult for the Jews. For a time, the Turkish military governor ordered internment and deportation of all foreign nationals. A large number of Jews were Russian nationals. They had been able to enter Palestine as Russian nationals because of the concessions Turkey had granted to Russian citizens, and they had used this method to overcome restrictions on immigration. They had also maintained Russian citizenship to avoid being drafted into the Turkish army. Therefore, a large number of Jews were forced to flee Palestine during the war.

The Jews’ turn to flee. Now Britain and France (FRANCE!) are going to divide the region amongst themselves. Britain was to have Palestine and France would be given Syria and Lebanon. France. What history did they have in the region? What right to the land did they hold?!

Then came the Balfour Declaration. Arab riots and revolt. The first “partition” recommendation (the Peel commission of 1937). Jews accept. Arabs reject. King Saud declares his lack of understanding of the *“strange attitude of [the] British Government, and the still more strange hypnotic influence which the Jews, a race accursed by God according to His Holy Book, and destined to final destruction and eternal damnation hereafter, appear to wield over them and the English people generally.” *

Then the Holocaust. Forgive me a moment of silent rememberance and thanks for your service.

(bolding mine) The United Nations Special Commission on Palestine (UNSCOP) recommended that Palestine be divided into an Arab state and a Jewish state. The commission called for Jerusalem to be put under international administration The UN General Assembly adopted this plan on Nov. 29, 1947 as UN Resolution (GA 181). . .

The Jews accepted the UN decision, but the Arabs rejected it. The resolution divided the land into two approximately equal portions in a complicated scheme with zig-zag borders (see map at right and see Partition Map and detailed partition map). The intention was an economic union between the two states with open borders. At the time of partition, slightly less than half the land in all of Palestine was owned by Arabs, slightly less than half was “crown lands” belonging to the state, and about 8% was owned by Jews or the Jewish Agency. There were about 600,000 Jews in Palestine, almost all living in the areas allotted to the Jewish state or in the internationalized zone of Jerusalem, and about 1.2 million Arabs. The allocation of land by Resolution 181 was intended to produce two areas with Jewish and Arab majorities respectively. Jerusalem and environs were to be internationalized. The relatively large Jewish population of Jerusalem and the surroundings, about 100,000, were geographically cut off from the rest of the Jewish state, separated by a relatively large area, the “corridor,” allotted to the Palestinian state. The corridor included the populous Arab towns of Lod and Ramla and the smaller towns of Qoloniyeh, Emaus, Qastel and others that guarded the road to Jerusalem.

There is absolutely no truth to your depiction that areas largely populated by Arab Palestinians was to be handed over to the Jews to control them. The Palestinians would be given their own sovereign nation over lands they currently lived on. They would simply have to accept that their Jewish neighbors would now have their own land to rule, as well, and try to live peacefully, side by side, each ruling themselves instead of both being ruled by other nations.

But the local Arab populations will not be happy until all the Jews have been driven into the sea. Too bad that will never happen, as Jews have populated and ruled that territory on and off for thousands and thousands of years. We have not only every bit of right, but moreso, to retain sovereign rule over lands that have been ours since 10,000 years ago.

[MrDibble]

@Shayna

The Jews have a history of living on, owning and ruling that area that dates back as far as 8,000 B.C.! Jews. Native. 8,000 years B.C. Jews. Sovereign rule over the land. Since thousands of years ago.

2 things:

1. Are you seriously suggesting that the religion, Judaism, was practiced in 8000 B.C.? Or that a distinct Jewish culture stretches that far back?
2. Are you also seriously suggesting that only the Jews, and not the Palestinians, are native to the area?

Lastly, yeah, some sovereign rule, I guess, over parts of Judea (and a lot smaller Kingdom than tradition has us believe) - when the Egyptians couldn’t be bothered. Or the Babylonians. Or the Persians. Romans. Turks. English. For how much of those 10,000 years from 8,000 B.C. do you think the Jews had sovereign rule, anyway?

[Unregistered_Bull]

@The Flying Dutchman

Fuck the KKK. Fuck Middle East Islam. Ra Ra Israel.

And fuck the major killer of innocent civillians, Israel ( a country started by Jewish terrorists using terrorist tactics and initially ruled by Jewish terrorists). And fuck the major destroyer of property that doesn’t belong to them, Israel ( a country started by Jewish terrorists using terrorist tactics and initially ruled by Jewish terrorists). And also fuck the people who continue to rob the Paletinians of land and water, Israel ( a country started by Jewish terrorists using terrorist tactics and initially ruled by Jewish terrorists).

[BrainGlutton]

@Shayna

The Jews have a history of living on, owning and ruling that area that dates back as far as 8,000 B.C.! Jews. Native. 8,000 years B.C. Jews. Sovereign rule over the land.

You know perfectly well none of that should matter now.

[The_Flying_Dutchman]

Bullshit !

[David_Simmons]

@BrainGlutton

You know perfectly well none of that should matter now.

You guys are shoveling sand against the tide. The only nuanced position that takes into account all of the complexities is that the shoehorning of Israel into Palestine was amply justified and perfectly conceived and that ever since then everything Israel has done has been exactly correct. Once you get that through your heads you will sink to your knees in humble gratitude for being enlightened. I know I have.

[BrainGlutton]

@The Flying Dutchman

Bullshit !

I know it does matter, I deny it should matter. Ancient ancestral claims to territory are worse than meaningless.

[Aeschines]

@David Simmons

The only nuanced position that takes into account all of the complexities is that the shoehorning of Israel into Palestine was amply justified and perfectly conceived and that ever since then everything Israel has done has been exactly correct.

Actually, the OP is the polar opposite of what you just wrote here:

1. Nuance doesn’t matter at this point; either one side must win conclusively or we’ll have the same killing accompanied by the world’s loudest and most annoying pissing and moaning for another 100 years.

2. Although its founding and subsequent actions have not been perfectly just and righteous, I pick Israel to win, and I think most Westerners would also pick it to win for obvious reasons.

It’s a pretty simple argument, really.

[BrainGlutton]

@Aeschines

1. Nuance doesn’t matter at this point; either one side must win conclusively or we’ll have the same killing accompanied by the world’s loudest and most annoying pissing and moaning for another 100 years.

How would you define a “conclusive win”?