# How to use apostrophes, for fuck's sake - redux **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 23, 2009, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-use-apostrophes-for-fucks-sake-redux/482608 "2009-01-23T07:57:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-use-apostrophes-for-fucks-sake-redux/482608/61 "2009-01-23T22:51:08Z")
> [@SiXSwordS](#): > > It’s a big jump from, “Some guides suggest using the serial comma and others don’t” to “There are no rules.” It’s not that. It’s the fact that a _guid_e is not a set of _rules_. That’s why a legal juristiction has one set of rules or laws, but we can have many opinions or guides. A style \*guide \*is only “rules” if your employer has made it so for you. The French do have “rules”. Americans have “guides”. ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-use-apostrophes-for-fucks-sake-redux/482608/62 "2009-01-23T23:04:07Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > One Obama. > > Two Obamas. > > Obama’s messed-up oath. > > The Obamas’ sex life. > > Obama’s in the bathroom right now and can’t come to the phone. > > I thank you. What’ are’ you’ on’ about’ now’ you’ bleedin’ wanker’? One was good, right? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-use-apostrophes-for-fucks-sake-redux/482608/63 "2009-01-23T23:06:07Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It’s not that. It’s the fact that a _guid_e is not a set of _rules_. That’s why a legal juristiction has one set of rules or laws, but we can have many opinions or guides. A style \*guide \*is only “rules” if your employer has made it so for you. > > The French do have “rules”. Americans have “guides”. So what’s your point in all this? That there are no “rules” so anything goes? If not, how do you define the way people should write in order to be clear and easy to read and follow? ---
**Author:** ![Ichini\_Sanshigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/d9b06d/32.png) [@Ichini\_Sanshigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ichini_Sanshigo)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-use-apostrophes-for-fucks-sake-redux/482608/64 "2009-01-23T23:06:22Z")
> [@SiXSwordS](#): > > I think the correction you’re looking for is: “Of course I would like some pie, thank,s,”, said Sally, crossing the room. Not quite. “Of course I would like some pie, thank,s’,”, said Sally. Crossing the room. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-use-apostrophes-for-fucks-sake-redux/482608/65 "2009-01-23T23:08:14Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > And yes, it is apparent that I know the standard conventions of language usage (for English, at least) better than you do. To take just two examples, I know the difference between “who” and “whom”, and I know that it’s incorrect to write “it’s” for “its”. Periods and commas inside the quotation marks (for Americans), if you please. I’d also point that out to DrDeth if I thought it would do any good. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-use-apostrophes-for-fucks-sake-redux/482608/66 "2009-01-23T23:11:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, it’s a _consensus_. > > Here, let me help you with that hard word: > [CONSENSUS Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/consensus) > > So, it’s not a rule if the guides disagree, but it _is_ a rule if they do agree, eh?:dubious: You know, you can find other hard words on that site: Rule 1 a: **a prescribed guide for conduct or action** b: the laws or regulations prescribed by the founder of a religious order for observance by its members c: \*\*an accepted procedure, custom, or habit \*\*d (1): a usually written order or direction made by a court regulating court practice or the action of parties (2): a legal precept or doctrine e: a regulation or bylaw governing procedure or controlling conduct 2 a (1): **a usually valid generalization** (2): a generally prevailing quality, state, or mode \ b: **a standard of judgment : criterion** c: a regulating principle d: a determinate method for performing a mathematical operation and obtaining a certain result Grammar and punctuation have rules. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-use-apostrophes-for-fucks-sake-redux/482608/67 "2009-01-23T23:12:31Z")
> [@CaerieD](#): > > Sally crossed the room, “I don’t want any pie, thanks.” She said. . Yeah, that American convention of putting the period inside the quotation marks when logically it should clearly be outside drives me nuts too. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-use-apostrophes-for-fucks-sake-redux/482608/68 "2009-01-23T23:17:37Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > So what’s your point in all this? That there are no “rules” so anything goes? If not, how do you define the way people should write in order to be clear and easy to read and follow? There are guides. You may pick one of several, or use any other \*reasonable _style that makes your writing easily understandable. Nothing wrong with picking one guide, or even bouncing back and forth between them. Maybe you like AP’s style on serial commas, and Chicago on something else. Unless your boss sez to stick with one, it’s OK_ to pick and choose, and even add a few oddities of your own. No one guide is the One True Right Way, despite that some here seem to think that if we don’t have a One True Right Way, communication will break down on the spot. Not to mention Armageddon. \*Which one could spell “Okay” or “Ok”. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-use-apostrophes-for-fucks-sake-redux/482608/69 "2009-01-23T23:19:16Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > Yeah, that American convention of putting the period inside the quotation marks when logically it should clearly be outside drives me nuts too. That sentence or whatever we can call that quote was completely grammatically fucked up. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-use-apostrophes-for-fucks-sake-redux/482608/70 "2009-01-23T23:22:09Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Periods and commas inside the quotation marks (for Americans), if you please. I’d also point that out to DrDeth if I thought it would do any good. This is one rule I’ll happily break, because more often than not it looks strange for single words and short phrases. Example: “I looked up the words ‘rule,’ ‘guide,’ and ‘pony.’” That just doesn’t work for me, as it implies the punctuation is part of the phrase. “I looked up the words ‘rule’, ‘guide’, and ‘pony’.” That seems much more sensible and easier to comprehend. On the flip side of the coin, inside the quotation marks for _dialogue_ looks more natural. ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-use-apostrophes-for-fucks-sake-redux/482608/71 "2009-01-23T23:24:26Z")
> [@Ichini\_Sanshigo](#): > > “Of course I would like some pie, thank,s’,”, said Sally. Crossing the room. “Who doesn’t like pie?” said Sally, room crossingly. or “Just give me the f\*$#@in’ pie already” Sally said crossly. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-use-apostrophes-for-fucks-sake-redux/482608/72 "2009-01-23T23:28:19Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > That sentence or whatever we can call that quote was completely grammatically fucked up. Really? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-use-apostrophes-for-fucks-sake-redux/482608/73 "2009-01-23T23:34:53Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > There are guides. You may pick one of several, or use any other \*reasonable _style that makes your writing easily understandable. Nothing wrong with picking one guide, or even bouncing back and forth between them. Maybe you like AP’s style on serial commas, and Chicago on something else. Unless your boss sez to stick with one, it’s OK_ to pick and choose, and even add a few oddities of your own. No one guide is the One True Right Way, despite that some here seem to think that if we don’t have a One True Right Way, communication will break down on the spot. Not to mention Armageddon. > > \*Which one could spell “Okay” or “Ok”. 😛 Not a bad answer. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-use-apostrophes-for-fucks-sake-redux/482608/74 "2009-01-23T23:37:55Z")
**DrDeth** , get a load of the late David Foster Wallace’s [Tense Present](http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/DFW_present_tense.html). He demolishes your _laissez-faire_ descriptivist argument, slaps around stodgy prescriptivists, and then proceeds to review _A Dictionary of American Usage_. If you want to skip straight to the part where he beats up your argument, eats its lunch, and steals its girlfriend, skip down to the part where he begins discussing Philip Gove. The entire essay is worth a read. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-use-apostrophes-for-fucks-sake-redux/482608/75 "2009-01-23T23:42:18Z")
> [@SiXSwordS](#): > > “Just give me the f\*$#@in’ pie already” Sally said crossly. “That’s rather small for a pie,” Sally said tartly. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-use-apostrophes-for-fucks-sake-redux/482608/76 "2009-01-23T23:47:03Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > This is one rule I’ll happily break, because more often than not it looks strange for single words and short phrases. Example: “I looked up the words ‘rule,’ ‘guide,’ and ‘pony.’” That just doesn’t work for me, as it implies the punctuation is part of the phrase. “I looked up the words ‘rule’, ‘guide’, and ‘pony’.” That seems much more sensible and easier to comprehend. On the flip side of the coin, inside the quotation marks for _dialogue_ looks more natural. Feel free, but we’ll treat you as the pariah you so clearly are. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ponderoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponderoid/32/19221_2.png) [@Ponderoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponderoid)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-use-apostrophes-for-fucks-sake-redux/482608/77 "2009-01-23T23:57:18Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > [Bob the Angry Flower’s Quick Guide to the Apostrophe, You Idiots](http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif) I came in here expecting someone to link to angryflower, and was not disappointed, thanks. 🙂 It’s too bad that cartoon doesn’t mention the it’s/its distinction, though. > [@CaerieD](#): > > And then sometimes some dumb shit doesn’t know the difference between commas and periods and comes up with crap like: > > > [@](#): > > > > Sally crossed the room, “I don’t want any pie, thanks.” She said. > > […] > Seeing stuff like this makes me cry blood. Me too. Unfortunately, I’ve encountered a LOT of people who actually do know the difference between a comma and a period, but still don’t know how to apply them properly when narrating dialogue. I’ve [complained about that before](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=458585). > [@Stratocaster](#): > > Periods and commas inside the quotation marks (for Americans), if you please. I’d also point that out to DrDeth if I thought it would do any good. Actually, putting extra marks outside the quotes is “logical quoting”, I think it’s called, and it’s the standard in Commonwealth English, but its use is gaining traction in America too. I’ve come to prefer it. However, the standard of putting the comma to the left of the quotemark when narrating dialogue is the same on both sides of the Atlantic; see the previous link and the [wikipedia entry](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English_differences#Punctuation). And if anyone changes that “both styles” bit without a cite again, I’ll revert it. :rolleyes: \*\*\* Ponder ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-use-apostrophes-for-fucks-sake-redux/482608/78 "2009-01-24T00:04:42Z")
> [@Ponderoid](#): > > Actually, putting extra marks outside the quotes is “logical quoting”, I think it’s called, and it’s the standard in Commonwealth English, but its use is gaining traction in America too. I’ve come to prefer it. However, the standard of putting the comma to the left of the quotemark when narrating dialogue is the same on both sides of the Atlantic; see the previous link and the [wikipedia entry](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English_differences#Punctuation). And if anyone changes that “both styles” bit without a cite again, I’ll revert it. :rolleyes: If it’s gaining traction in formal writing in the U.S., I haven’t noticed it. And this is one of my punctuation pet peeves–I always seem to notice it when it rears its ugly, rule-flouting head. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-use-apostrophes-for-fucks-sake-redux/482608/79 "2009-01-24T00:06:31Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Gawd, yes. > > There are three Ms in that word. > I have 15 DVDs in my pants. > The 1980s will never die. > > An apostrophe is extraneous and messy. I guess I’ll disagree. Without an apostrophe, all of those look horrendous, especially the first example. “Three Ms”? Good God. ---
**Author:** ![Sigmagirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c89c15/32.png) [@Sigmagirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigmagirl)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-use-apostrophes-for-fucks-sake-redux/482608/80 "2009-01-24T00:23:26Z")
Disagree; I’m with **Bosstone**. They all look perfectly correct. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-use-apostrophes-for-fucks-sake-redux/482608.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-use-apostrophes-for-fucks-sake-redux/482608.md?page=5)