# How unjust was the Casey Anthony verdict?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unjust-was-the-casey-anthony-verdict/588055
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [July 6, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unjust-was-the-casey-anthony-verdict/588055 "2011-07-06T16:37:39Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 10
### Author:  [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2011, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unjust-was-the-casey-anthony-verdict/588055/181 "2011-07-08T17:05:36Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#):
>
> Did the prosecution actually produce any evidence that Casey did it?
From the link provided:
> [@](#):
>
> Last month, the Orange County State Attorney turned over almost 800 pages of documents showing someone used the Anthonys’ home computer to do Internet searches for terms like “neck breaking” and “household weapons.”
>
> In mid-March, someone searched Google and Wikipedia for peroxide, shovels, acetone, alcohol and chloroform. Traces of chloroform, which is used to induce unconsciousness and a component of human decomposition, were found in the trunk of Casey Anthony’s car during forensic testing, the documents say.
Additionally, the fact that she didn’t report her daughter missing for 31 days, her behavior after the death before her incarceration, the lies about “kidnappers,” and the fairy tale about accidental drowning were offered as being inconsistent with an innocent person (and/or the facts). Casey’s Mom (who later seemed to clearly change tactics, I believe in the interest of keeping her daughter alive) described the horrible smell from the trunk of Casey’s car, as if a dead body had been in there.
Just off the top of my head, though.
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### Author:  [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2011, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unjust-was-the-casey-anthony-verdict/588055/182 "2011-07-08T17:15:20Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#):
>
> [QUOTE=The Other Waldo Pepper]
> Did the prosecution actually produce any evidence that Casey did it?
From the link provided:
[/QUOTE]
No, not that “it”. My quoted question was in response to the bit about duct-taping the body and moving it: RNATB emphasized that the defense merely suggested that somebody else had done it, and I asked whether – given the lack of prints on the tape – the prosecution had any evidence that it was her rather than someone else.
Still,
> [@](#):
>
> Additionally, the fact that she didn’t report her daughter missing for 31 days, her behavior after the death before her incarceration, the lies about “kidnappers,” and the fairy tale about accidental drowning were offered as being inconsistent with an innocent person (and/or the facts). Casey’s Mom (who later seemed to clearly change tactics, I believe in the interest of keeping her daughter alive) described the horrible smell from the trunk of Casey’s car, as if a dead body had been in there.
Innocent of what? If the kid drowned and – fearing a homicide charge – she covered it up amidst much lying, she’s guilty of something, sure. Which is why she in fact got found guilty of something.
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### Author:  [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unjust-was-the-casey-anthony-verdict/588055/183 "2011-07-08T17:26:31Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#):
>
> Innocent of what? If the kid drowned and – fearing a homicide charge – she covered it up amidst much lying, she’s guilty of something, sure. Which is why she in fact got found guilty of something.
Innocent of killing Caylee. That’s what I meant by inconsistent with the facts. If the kid drowned, why was her face covered with duct tape? That leads us to conclude that the drowning tale was nonsense–and what do we infer from that? There was no accidental drowning, not according to the Medical Examiner. IMO, the evidence in the aggregate forces us to abandon logic to maintain a presumption of innocence.
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### Author:  [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unjust-was-the-casey-anthony-verdict/588055/184 "2011-07-08T17:29:59Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#):
>
> Correct to a point. When the defense makes spectacular claims, however, as her attorney did in his opening statement, those claims need to be backed up.
>
> I’m confused as to how you can claim that there is no evidence that a wrongful death occurred when a little girl’s body is found in the woods with duct tape on her mouth and her mother has lied repeatedly about where that child has been.
>
> There’s a term we learn in law school: _res ipsa loquitur_. It means, “the thing speaks for itself.” Let’s say a man is walking down the sidewalk, and a piano falls on his head. Being the only person around, you dash up the stairs of the building he was standing next to, and the only person in that building is on the top floor next to an open, piano-sized window. Regardless of the fact that you didn’t see him push the piano out the window, it defies reason to explain the falling piano in any other way.
IANALawyer so if you are and your claim about opening statements is a matter of law, I’ll stand corrected. But in the law classes I attended it was stated that openings and closings were arguments, not evidence, and were to be considered as such. Thus, short of telling lies or, in closing, mis-characterizing the evidence already presented (and subject to objection from the other side), attorneys may claim virtually anything they want without necessity of proof. Juries may compare “spectacular claims” to actual evidence and conclude that the attorney is an ass, or has made unsupported claims, and this may comport badly for the client. But there is no prohibition on presenting speculation, usually couched as alternative theories.
As for the piano, what is the assurance, the proof as it were, that the guy in the window isn’t as innocent as you? Perhaps he was closer (maybe on the floor below, looking out his window) and got there faster than you did. How do you know that there were no other people in the building? Maybe they all snuck out because they couldn’t bear hearing the cacophony.
As for whether or not I mis-spoke regarding evidence of cause of death, perhaps this is simply my opinion based upon incomplete knowledge – I didn’t fixate on this trial and have read relatively little about it. But my recollection says that there was a skull, and there was some duct tape. And forensic examination suggested that duct tape could have been affixed over the mouth that was no longer present, in fact the evidence was “consistent with” tape placed over a mouth, but in point of fact there was no mouth found and no absolute assurance that duct tape had actually been applied over a mouth, whether before or after death. That, and the lack of any other evidence about cause, is the reason the cause of death was listed as “undetermined”.
And boy, I would hate to be convicted of anything based upon my own google searches! Did anybody actually demonstrate that Casey had purchased chloroform, or had it in her utility room, or had access to it at work or something? Because it isn’t a common household chemical to my knowledge, and just looking it up on line is quite a distance from possessing any, and that is itself some distance from using it to cause a fatality. It is though a common component of organic decomposition, which could be of a child’s body or a pack of chicken leftovers. Like so much of the prosecution’s case, the chloroform issue is plausible but not proof. And like the rest of the prosecution’s case, it demonstrates massive over-reach. It was this over-reach, IMHO, that ultimately caused the acquittal.
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### Author:  [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2011, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unjust-was-the-casey-anthony-verdict/588055/185 "2011-07-08T17:30:05Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#):
>
> Innocent of killing Caylee. That’s what I meant by inconsistent with the facts. If the kid drowned, why was her face covered with duct tape?
To stop the decomposing body from falling apart while moving it. Isn’t that what folks testified her family did when moving dead animals? Isn’t that why the defense’s medical expert testified that the tape was applied post-mortem?
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### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2011, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unjust-was-the-casey-anthony-verdict/588055/186 "2011-07-08T17:30:28Z")
Is it unreasonable to doubt that individuals always behave rationally or logically?
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### Author:  [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2011, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unjust-was-the-casey-anthony-verdict/588055/187 "2011-07-08T17:32:59Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#):
>
> To stop the decomposing body from falling apart while moving it. Isn’t that what folks testified her family did when moving dead animals? Isn’t that why the defense’s medical expert testified that the tape was applied post-mortem?
Wow, that’s a good one. If that seems reasonable to you, we’re working with different definitions of “reasonable.”
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### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2011, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unjust-was-the-casey-anthony-verdict/588055/188 "2011-07-08T17:34:01Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#):
>
> Innocent of killing Caylee. That’s what I meant by inconsistent with the facts. If the kid drowned, why was her face covered with duct tape? That leads us to conclude that the drowning tale was nonsense–and what do we infer from that? There was no accidental drowning, not according to the Medical Examiner. IMO, the evidence in the aggregate forces us to abandon logic to maintain a presumption of innocence.
Okay, let’s try this: Caylee was killed by a guy that Casey dated. The guy told Casey he’d kill her if she told anyone, so she covered up the murder. Are her actions inconsistent with that scenario?
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### Author:  [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2011, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unjust-was-the-casey-anthony-verdict/588055/189 "2011-07-08T17:36:22Z")
In light of her partying behavior after the fact, I certainly think so.
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### Author:  [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2011, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unjust-was-the-casey-anthony-verdict/588055/190 "2011-07-08T17:36:35Z")
> [@CannyDan](#):
>
> That, and the lack of any other evidence about cause, is the reason the cause of death was listed as “undetermined”.
The Medical Examiner concluded the cause of death was homicide by unknown means. The cause of death was not “undetermined.”
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### Author:  [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unjust-was-the-casey-anthony-verdict/588055/191 "2011-07-08T17:39:36Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#):
>
> …There was no accidental drowning, not according to the Medical Examiner…
This is incorrect. The medical examiner could not determine a cause of death, and could not rule out causes of death that would only be determined by soft tissue examination. In other words, decapitation was definitely not the cause, nor was gunshot to the head, but exsanguination, suffocation, pneumonia, heart attack, stroke, bubonic plague, and even drowning could not be ruled out.
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### Author:  [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unjust-was-the-casey-anthony-verdict/588055/192 "2011-07-08T17:39:43Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> Okay, let’s try this: Caylee was killed by a guy that Casey dated. The guy told Casey he’d kill her if she told anyone, so she covered up the murder. Are her actions inconsistent with that scenario?
I think so. She was going to risk the needle rather than give up this guy we have no evidence of (I know you’re just offering a hypothetical)? That defies belief.
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### Author:  [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2011, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unjust-was-the-casey-anthony-verdict/588055/193 "2011-07-08T17:41:59Z")
> [@CannyDan](#):
>
> This is incorrect. The medical examiner could not determine a cause of death, and could not rule out causes of death that would only be determined by soft tissue examination. In other words, decapitation was definitely not the cause, nor was gunshot to the head, but exsanguination, suffocation, pneumonia, heart attack, stroke, bubonic plague, and even drowning could not be ruled out.
No, you’re wrong. The Medical Examiner indicated a cause of death: homicide. They could not determine the means of homicide, but they did conclude the cause was homicide based on the available evidence.
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### Author:  [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2011, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unjust-was-the-casey-anthony-verdict/588055/194 "2011-07-08T17:42:21Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#):
>
> I think so. She was going to risk the needle rather than give up this guy we have no evidence of (I know you’re just offering a hypothetical)? That defies belief.
I think it’s possible, especially what we know about her now.
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### Author:  [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unjust-was-the-casey-anthony-verdict/588055/195 "2011-07-08T17:44:01Z")
It’s possible. Lots of things are. But it’s not a reasonable supposition, IMO.
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### Author:  [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2011, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unjust-was-the-casey-anthony-verdict/588055/196 "2011-07-08T17:47:06Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#):
>
> It’s possible. Lots of things are. But it’s not a reasonable supposition, IMO.
Well it’s opinion. To me it’s likely she drowned and they covered up her death. To you it’s not.
I don’t find it likely she was murdered because there is no motive, no murder weapon, and no known cause of death.
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### Author:  [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2011, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unjust-was-the-casey-anthony-verdict/588055/197 "2011-07-08T17:47:21Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#):
>
> The hard part to accept is that Casey’s lies prevented the body from being found sooner.
Actually, for me the hard part to accept is that there is some innocent explanation for a mother lying repeatedly about her daughter’s death. If the circumstances were innocent, she has no reason to lie. If they’re not, there’s every reason. If she was kidnapped, why would you say she drowned (and not report the kidnapping)? If she drowned, why would you say she was kidnapped?
I don’t know if that is enough for first-degree murder, though. Manslaughter, maybe?
FWIW, I don’t think there is real doubt about what happened - Casey either killed her daughter with an accidental overdose of Xanax, or left her locked in the trunk for too long while Casey partied and her daughter smothered. Casey discovered it, panicked, and being an inept sociopath tried a bunch of half-baked lies while she dumped the body somewhere.
Like I have said in another thread, she will drink until she loses her looks and then die homeless. Probably have another kid, but CPS will snatch it away quick enough.
> [@JThunder](#):
>
> You’re a class act, Stratocaster. I mean that without any dint of sarcasm.
Obviously.
Regards,
Shodan
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### Author:  [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2011, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unjust-was-the-casey-anthony-verdict/588055/198 "2011-07-08T17:49:27Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#):
>
> The Medical Examiner concluded the cause of death was homicide by unknown means. The cause of death was not “undetermined.”
OK, the \*cause \*was “unknown” not “undetermined”. A distinction without a difference.
The \*manner \*of death was judged to be homicide, in the opinion of the medical examiner.
These two words are different, and both are important.
Unless members of the jury decide to reveal their deliberations, we will not know whether they agreed or disagreed with the medical examiner on this point. It seems to me that homicide is a very plausible manner of death in this instance, but (again MHO) without an actual cause, I cannot rule out the plausibility of some accident or mischance (like illness). Were I the medical examiner, I’d have chosen homicide myself, on the “that’s what juries are for” premise. And in this case, even had the jury agreed with the medical examiner on this sole point, they still would need to see proof that Casey, and Casey alone, had committed the homicide.
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### Author:  [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2011, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unjust-was-the-casey-anthony-verdict/588055/199 "2011-07-08T17:54:01Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> Actually, for me the hard part to accept is that there is some innocent explanation for a mother lying repeatedly about her daughter’s death. If the circumstances were innocent, she has no reason to lie. If they’re not, there’s every reason. If she was kidnapped, why would you say she drowned (and not report the kidnapping)? If she drowned, why would you say she was kidnapped?
>
> I don’t know if that is enough for first-degree murder, though. Manslaughter, maybe?
>
> FWIW, I don’t think there is real doubt about what happened - Casey either killed her daughter with an accidental overdose of Xanax, or left her locked in the trunk for too long while Casey partied and her daughter smothered. Casey discovered it, panicked, and being an inept sociopath tried a bunch of half-baked lies while she dumped the body somewhere.
>
> Like I have said in another thread, she will drink until she loses her looks and then die homeless. Probably have another kid, but CPS will snatch it away quick enough.
> Obviously.
>
> Regards,
> Shodan
Of course it’s not enough for a first degree murder charge. She was found guilty of the charges they could prove–lying.
As for what really happened, I think it’s possible the boyfriend accidentally killed the girl and Casey lied to protect him. As for your xanax theory, what evidence is there of that?
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### Author:  [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unjust-was-the-casey-anthony-verdict/588055/200 "2011-07-08T18:05:28Z")
I saw this on another board and I like it:
“If seeing someone accused of a capital crime be acquitted because his/her guilt was not proven beyond a reasonable doubt upsets you, I suggest that you emigrate. Clearly, living in a country with an independent judiciary and a presumption of innocence is not for you. I suggest that you find a repressive nation with a tinpot dictator that rules through fear.”
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