# How Unrealistic is Starfleet's Chain of Command? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 9, 2003, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unrealistic-is-starfleets-chain-of-command/160033 "2003-03-09T03:57:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![lurkernomore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@lurkernomore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lurkernomore)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unrealistic-is-starfleets-chain-of-command/160033/21 "2003-03-09T19:10:47Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by King Rat \* > \*\* > However, lurkernomore, I’m not so sure about Spock being promoted. I think he was always a Commander, but at least one early script (again, \* Court Martial_) incorrectly (in my judgment) referred to him as a Lt. Commander. Finney was also referred to as a Lt. Commander, yet \* they both wore two solid braids on their sleeves\*. Of course, If Spock was called a Lt. Commander in the pilots (and I don’t recall offhand), well everybody’s uniform insignia changed after that. (remember Kirk having two solid braids?) > \*\* I’m, not home, so I can’t refer to the books or any videos, but this is from the website: > [@](#): > > 2265 – As lieutenant commander, named first officer and science officer under Capt. James T. Kirk aboard Enterprise; promoted to commander soon after [http://www.startrek.com/library/individ.asp?ID=112508](http://www.startrek.com/library/individ.asp?ID=112508) ---
**Author:** ![Papermache\_Prince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f05b48/32.png) [@Papermache\_Prince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Papermache_Prince)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unrealistic-is-starfleets-chain-of-command/160033/22 "2003-03-09T19:35:06Z")
So who cleans up messes? Say Picard, on his way to the Bridge to handle a crisis, drops his Earl Grey. Who is responsible for getting the paper towels? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unrealistic-is-starfleets-chain-of-command/160033/23 "2003-03-09T20:06:00Z")
In the democratic non-military Starfleet of the future? He’d clean it up himself, of course. ---
**Author:** ![lurkernomore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@lurkernomore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lurkernomore)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unrealistic-is-starfleets-chain-of-command/160033/24 "2003-03-09T20:08:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Papermache Prince \* > \*\*So who cleans up messes? Say Picard, on his way to the Bridge to handle a crisis, drops his Earl Grey. Who is responsible for getting the paper towels? \*\* Worf. Isn’t that stupid sash from an old style towel machine? ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unrealistic-is-starfleets-chain-of-command/160033/25 "2003-03-09T20:11:15Z")
The ship was self cleaning, apparantly, as I can find no mention of orderlies or janitors or swabbers or anything like that. ---
**Author:** ![brianmelendez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/65b543/32.png) [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unrealistic-is-starfleets-chain-of-command/160033/26 "2003-03-09T20:32:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lumpy \* > **Oh! So Starfleet did have commodores besides Matt Decker! I was going to post about how they invoked this virtually never-used rank in _The Doomsday Machine_ solely as a plot device to allow Decker to outrank Kirk and thus create a command crisis. Any other Trek episodes that mention commodores?** Mendez, the starbase commander in _The Menagerie_ who serves with Pike and Kirk on the court martial that tries Spock for contact with Talos IV, was a commodore. ---
**Author:** ![brianmelendez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/65b543/32.png) [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unrealistic-is-starfleets-chain-of-command/160033/27 "2003-03-09T20:34:49Z")
Just remembered another commodore: Stocker, the officer whom the _Enterprise_ is transporting to his new command, in _The Deadly Years_. ---
**Author:** ![brianmelendez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/65b543/32.png) [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unrealistic-is-starfleets-chain-of-command/160033/28 "2003-03-09T20:37:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lurkernomore \* > \*\*Also, in the ep \* The Menagerie \*, wasn’t the general order rescinded by a commodore? Seem to remember Uhura reading the order and saying it funny…commoDORE, maybe? \*\* I remember the same thing: Uhura reads the signature on the order, “Men_ **dez** _, J._ **I.** _, Commo_ **dore** _.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unrealistic-is-starfleets-chain-of-command/160033/29 "2003-03-09T21:40:57Z")
What always bothered me about the military culture on “Star Trek” was they used NAVY ranks, as well as a lot of naval traditions and symbolism. Roddenberry was ex-Navy, I understand. Heinlein was guilty of the same thing in a lot of his SF. At first glance it looks plausible – a ship is a ship, right? What works on sailing ship should work on a spaceship. But when you think about it – At present, the closest thing we have to a military space force is the Air Force, which was hived off from the Army and uses ranks based on Army ranks. I believe the same is true of every country that has an air force. If we ever develop a true military Space Force, most likely it will be hived off from the Air Force, NOT the Navy, and will use Air Force-derived ranks, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unrealistic-is-starfleets-chain-of-command/160033/30 "2003-03-09T21:44:42Z")
I used “Commodore” in a movie-era fanfic, describing a staff officer who wanted promotion to the admiralty but got that rank instead, as a clear indication he wasn’t considered quite good enough. Not accurate, I know, but I was going for the grey disappointed imagery. ---
**Author:** ![Kat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b19c9b/32.png) [@Kat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kat)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unrealistic-is-starfleets-chain-of-command/160033/31 "2003-03-09T21:46:30Z")
Actually, every SF novel I can think of that deals with it bases their space force culture on the the Navy (and many include Marines as “ground forces” that ride along). Of course, they’re probably all still building on existing SF tradition. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unrealistic-is-starfleets-chain-of-command/160033/32 "2003-03-09T21:54:48Z")
Roddenberry flew for the US Army Air Corps in the Pacific theatre in WWII. Later, for Pan American Airways. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unrealistic-is-starfleets-chain-of-command/160033/33 "2003-03-09T21:56:18Z")
After that, he was a cop. Maybe that’s why all his ranks are screwy ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unrealistic-is-starfleets-chain-of-command/160033/34 "2003-03-09T22:00:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BrainGlutton \* > If we ever develop a true military Space Force, most likely it will be hived off from the Air Force, NOT the Navy, and will use Air Force-derived ranks, etc. I cna see a Navy influence if ships are built: [ul][li]As permanent self-contained vessels, i.e. not for a single mission (as the _Apollo_ capsules) and not depending on specific launch facilities and short-term goals (like the shuttles)[/li][li]With long-term crews, assigned for six months or more[/li][li]With flexible missions, i.e. this week we fly to Mars. Next month, to Venus.[/li][/ul] A big step toward the above points will be the construction of a ship in space (from material mined from the moon are lifted in shuttles) that can navigate, but is never intended to actually land. At that point, life in space becomes more like the Navy than being the flight crew aboard an aircraft, and when a branch of the military is created for that specific purpose, I believe they’ll go with Navy ranks and traditions. In any case, it would require a huge expansion of current space exploration. As it stands, the number of available astronaut positions are so few and in such demand that NASA can pick and choose Air Force, Army and Navy personnel as required, with no need to standardize. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unrealistic-is-starfleets-chain-of-command/160033/35 "2003-03-09T22:02:47Z")
Hmm, maybe the trickle-down technology of space exploration can eventually be used to eliminate my many typos. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unrealistic-is-starfleets-chain-of-command/160033/36 "2003-03-09T23:02:31Z")
However, **BrainGlutton** , the closest thing we have this day and age to operating a Starship is operating a nuclear submarine on patrol. Isolated, in a hostile environment, dependent on artificial life-support, using an artificial “day” not related to the outside standard time. And a very Navy job. As **Bryan** points out, once you get spaceships large enough, on long-duration autonomous missions, to actually have watch-standing and a line/staff hierarchy going, you start drifting seaward. (The ISS is more like a weather station, so though it’s long-duration it need not have an elaborate command structure; the shuttle is command pilot, copilot, flight engineer, crew chief, payload handlers, resembling a bomber/cargo plane crew) Put people to live for 6 months at a time on deployment, with an overall mission commander, an XO, a principal flight engineer, a crew chief for the mission specialists, plus at least 2 other shifts of pilot-copilot-navigator-flight engineer-mission/payload spec teams, and position titles may start evolving towards something more “familiar” to operating a ship than a bomber. Maybe as a PR move you do not adopt _military_ rank but _merchant marine_ titles: Master for the CO; First Mate/Officer for the 2iC/XO; 2d & 3d Mate/Officers for the junior line officers; 1st, 2d and 3d engineer’s mates; shipswains, “able” crewmen, etc. You could have what happened to the RAF, which as evolved essentially turned their job descriptions into sui-generis rank titles (Flying Officer, Pilot Officer, Flight Lieutenant, Squadron Leader, Wing Commander, Group Captain). I’d really like this outcome. Still RAF ended up using _some_ naval conventions (e.g “leading aircraftsman” for the highest private rank, from the naval rating of “leading seaman”; Air Commodore rather than Air Brigadier; Vice-Marshal, rather than Lieutenant-Marshal; cuff braid instead of pips-and-crowns.) Another thing that can happen is what I call the “Canadian” answer. Technically, use Army rank titles for the payroll, but in a “shipboard environment”, be addressed by “navy” titles because it’s what matches what you DO. ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unrealistic-is-starfleets-chain-of-command/160033/37 "2003-03-10T02:29:40Z")
As someone who is not particularly familiar with the canon of Star Trek, other than casual viewership, I always found that in the original series the insignia of rank made sense as analogues to current US & British (and many other countries’) naval rank insignia. I always thought that the original USS Enterprise was a small scout ship exploring the outer reaches of charted space. It wasn’t a major capital vessel, expected to participate in major fleet battles, but an expeditionary ship that would make contact and report back. Perhaps the best analogy would be Captain James Cook in H.M.S. Endeavor making his exploratory journey that first charted the coast of Australia. The Endeavor was a Bark, a small class of vessel, and “Captain” Cook held the naval rank of Lieutenant. In U.S. and British naval practice, the rank of Lieutenant Commander arose from those naval Lieutenants who held command of small ships, rather than as an officer who was assistant to a Commander, the rank of the commanding officer of the smaller class of capital ship, such as a sloop of war. Full Captains commanded Frigates and Ships of the Line. Kirk had two full stripes and one broken one, the equivalent to the two and a half stripes of a Lieutenant Commander in the U.S. and British navies. That would be an appropriate rank for the commanding officer of a small scout ship. His chief officers were senior Lieutenants with two full stripes, and Lieutenants Junior Grade with one and a half stripe. Ensigns/sublieutenants had one stripe, and junior personnel (midshipmen?) had none. I would suggest that whoever put together the initial insignia had a similar status of the Enterprise in mind, but with the increasingly heroic nature of “Captain” Kirk and the Enterprise, the original rank scheme got pushed aside. I would think that the idea of Kirk as a young, impulsive, relatively junior officer in charge of a lonely scouting mission makes sense with the initial idea of the program. It was only when the Enterprise became the focus of Starfleet, rather than an obscure outpost, that the rank structure had to be revised. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unrealistic-is-starfleets-chain-of-command/160033/38 "2003-03-10T04:28:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RickJay \* > \*\*…Read the OP. \*\* My mistake–I must have had TNG on my mind (probably because I never much got into DS9). ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unrealistic-is-starfleets-chain-of-command/160033/39 "2003-03-10T04:37:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BrainGlutton \* > \*\*At present, the closest thing we have to a military space force is the Air Force, which was hived off from the Army and uses ranks based on Army ranks. I believe the same is true of every country that has an air force. If we ever develop a true military Space Force, most likely it will be hived off from the Air Force, NOT the Navy, and will use Air Force-derived ranks, etc. \*\* Ah, but what if the first starship was built out of an old battleship – say, the Yamato? ---
**Author:** ![vandal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/858c86/32.png) [@vandal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vandal)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unrealistic-is-starfleets-chain-of-command/160033/40 "2003-03-10T05:23:14Z")
I’ve always wondered why their uniform colors varied. Is it to denote rank? Or a particular job function? Also, the uniforms that they wear, would they be considered class A uniforms? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unrealistic-is-starfleets-chain-of-command/160033.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-unrealistic-is-starfleets-chain-of-command/160033.md?page=3)