# How useful is a seeing eye dog? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 5, 2013, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-useful-is-a-seeing-eye-dog/652086 "2013-03-05T13:52:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-useful-is-a-seeing-eye-dog/652086/21 "2013-03-06T18:20:55Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Several states have prison programs for the care of retired racehorses: It’s not just racehorses. The prison program in NY also takes in horses that are retired from police and fire departments. So you know that story about how they take an old pet out to a nice farm in the country so it could play in the fields all day? For NYPD horses, that actually happens. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-useful-is-a-seeing-eye-dog/652086/22 "2013-03-06T19:03:17Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Now, in cases where a blind person is trying to go one way and the dog seems to be fighting him, it’s POSSIBLE that the dog knows what he’s doing. A service dog is TRAINED to be “disobedient” in circumstances where the blind person is trying do do something dangerous (like, say, crossing the street when cars are coming). I saw that once in Barcelona, where a bus had stopped very far from the curb and the distance a blind man would have to jump to get down was scary (about mid-thigh for me, I’m 5’4"); there wasn’t a place nearby where the driver could stop that would be any better. The dog got between his charge and the door and didn’t want to let him go down. We explained the problem; two of us went down and got ready to help the man down. He thanked the dog, got the dog to sit to the side handing his harness to a woman while he sat at the edge of the bus and then got lowered to the floor. As soon as his human was safely down, the dog stopped whining and jumped down, wagging his tail. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-useful-is-a-seeing-eye-dog/652086/23 "2013-03-06T20:13:25Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > As for heroic dogs, there was a guy whose dog led him down many, many flights of stairs at the WTC on 9/11. He moved to a job doing PR at Guide Dogs in San Rafael. It is a very inspiring story. Two dogs did this, apparently. [Salty and Roselle](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salty_and_Roselle). ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-useful-is-a-seeing-eye-dog/652086/24 "2013-03-06T20:51:44Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > I saw that once in Barcelona, where a bus had stopped very far from the curb and the distance a blind man would have to jump to get down was scary (about mid-thigh for me, I’m 5’4"); there wasn’t a place nearby where the driver could stop that would be any better. The dog got between his charge and the door and didn’t want to let him go down. We explained the problem; two of us went down and got ready to help the man down. He thanked the dog, got the dog to sit to the side handing his harness to a woman while he sat at the edge of the bus and then got lowered to the floor. As soon as his human was safely down, the dog stopped whining and jumped down, wagging his tail. That’s what I mean: amazing. How do you get a dog to understand that being naughty is being good? They are so intelligent. ---
**Author:** ![JerseySwamps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9a140/32.png) [@JerseySwamps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseySwamps)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-useful-is-a-seeing-eye-dog/652086/25 "2013-03-06T21:25:48Z")
It is worth noting that Seeing Eye is a registered trademark of The Seeing Eye, Inc. of Morristown NJ. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-useful-is-a-seeing-eye-dog/652086/26 "2013-03-06T21:30:05Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It’s not just racehorses. The prison program in NY also takes in horses that are retired from police and fire departments. > > So you know that story about how they take an old pet out to a nice farm in the country so it could play in the fields all day? For NYPD horses, that actually happens. To my knowledge the NYPD either returns their patrol horses to their previous owners, or boards them privately. I do not know of a coordinated retirement program existing at all, much less one at a prison. The Fire department hasn’t owned horses in a good long while. The last horse-drawn fire call run was in 1922. The prison program involving retired racehorses is organized through TRF (Thoroughbred Retirement Foundation), a racing industry charity. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-useful-is-a-seeing-eye-dog/652086/27 "2013-03-06T21:48:47Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Now, in cases where a blind person is trying to go one way and the dog seems to be fighting him, it’s POSSIBLE that the dog knows what he’s doing. A service dog is TRAINED to be “disobedient” in circumstances where the blind person is trying do do something dangerous (like, say, crossing the street when cars are coming). > > A properly trained service dog is a marvel to behold when he’s in sync with his master. If the dog ISN’T properly trained, or is not on the same page as its master, things could be very difficult. I’ve always wondered: To what extent to well-trained service dogs really understand what they’re doing, vs. to what extent are they just acting robotically according to their training? I lean towards believing (or say rather, I really _want_ to believe) that these dogs actually have some understanding of what they are doing. And probably, as their time on-the-job increases, they develop ever increasing understanding of what they are doing. Or, at least, SOME dogs do. The evidence lies in the the “amazing dog hero” stories one often reads, including here in this thread, of dogs who did the right thing, even when confronted with situations that they weren’t specifically trained for. This happens sometimes even with non-trained family pet dogs – witness the occasional stories of dogs pulling their families out of burning buildings. In such cases, it seems the dog can: (a) Recognize hazardous situation. (“House on fire!”) (b) Understand danger to master. (“Master is sleeping and in danger of getting roasted!”) (c) Figure out a solution. (“Bark a lot, or maybe even pull master out of bed!”) So the stories about brilliant heroic wonder doggies seem to have two common elements: – Degree of smarts, so that dog can understand and size up a hazardous but unfamiliar situation, two the extend of being able to make command decisions about what to do. – Not to mention, extreme loyalty to master! I have no doubt that well-trained guide dolphins can do this too. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-useful-is-a-seeing-eye-dog/652086/28 "2013-03-06T22:07:27Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > I have no doubt that well-trained guide dolphins can do this too. Well, it is established fact that dolphins are more intelligent than humans (_So Long and Thanks for All the Fish_), but somehow the notion of a dolphin leading a blind person out of a burning house just does not quite work. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-useful-is-a-seeing-eye-dog/652086/29 "2013-03-07T14:14:57Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I notice the OP actually doesn’t specify that the neighbor’s dog is actually an official, trained seeing eye dog. Well, I didn’t ask to see its badge but I’m pretty sure it is an ‘official’ seeing eye dog. She is blind, the dog wears the harness with the handle like seeing eye dogs do and they are always together. I doubt she just bought a puppy and strapped on the harness. Do people do that? Are there black market seeing eye dogs of some kind? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-useful-is-a-seeing-eye-dog/652086/30 "2013-03-07T14:39:22Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > Are there black market seeing eye dogs of some kind? There are dogs trained to higher standards than others. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-useful-is-a-seeing-eye-dog/652086/31 "2013-03-07T16:03:19Z")
We had a patient whose seeing-eye dog started developing cataracts, so he let her “retire” to a life as his pet and got a new seeing-eye dog. He said he was initially worried that his first guide dog would be jealous, but when he took both of them out together initially, his first dog apparently knew exactly what was going on and wanted no part in the actual guiding any longer; she let the newbie deal with that and enjoyed just trotting alongside her master for once. He did say that he thought his new dog was great, but was a little disappointed that she was a black Lab. He had some level of seeing light vs dark, large high-contrast objects, etc., and found that it was harder to see a black Lab under a chair/table than it was a golden Lab. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-useful-is-a-seeing-eye-dog/652086/32 "2013-03-07T16:16:20Z")
Interesting; you’ld think the facilitators would have thought of that. Nitpick: no such animal as golden lab (unless you mean a mix). Golden retriever or yellow lab. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-useful-is-a-seeing-eye-dog/652086/33 "2013-03-07T16:49:20Z")
As an undergrad, I worked with blind students part-time – proctoring tests, reading textbooks, helping with research. Some became pretty good friends. I recall there was an ongoing argument among them as to the merits of guide dogs. There were two separate camps – the dog lovers, and those who pointed out they didn’t have to get up to let their canes outside to take a leak in the middle of a freezing night. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-useful-is-a-seeing-eye-dog/652086/34 "2013-03-07T16:58:39Z")
Sometimes a dog which doesn’t particularly like you might still save your life: [- YouTube](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbGk_7y-wFY) ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-useful-is-a-seeing-eye-dog/652086/35 "2013-03-07T17:23:29Z")
We used to have a poster here a long time ago that raised and trained guide dogs all the time. I believe her name was **Elenfaire** maybe? Anyway, if she still reads the boards, maybe she’ll do a vanity search and find this thread. I always thought her input was amazing. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-useful-is-a-seeing-eye-dog/652086/36 "2013-03-07T18:57:36Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Interesting; you’ld think the facilitators would have thought of that. > > Nitpick: no such animal as golden lab (unless you mean a mix). Golden retriever or yellow lab. Right, forgot that. I gather that if he cared enough about it, he probably could have refused to take a black dog. The cataract progression was slow and he had time to find a new one. He was very pleased with her abilities, plus I suspect having two very different-appearing dogs might have been helpful to him; the new one was harder to see in dim light but at least at home, it’d be easier for him to know which was which. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-useful-is-a-seeing-eye-dog/652086/37 "2013-03-07T19:32:33Z")
You raise a point that most people are unaware of: the vast majority of blind people are not “pitch-black” blind. You’d also be amazed at how many people think that the dog checks if the light is red or a green at a corner. Also, I have no idea how you train a dog to disobey. It doesn’t seem possible. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-useful-is-a-seeing-eye-dog/652086/38 "2013-03-07T20:30:35Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Also, I have no idea how you train a dog to disobey. It doesn’t seem possible. I don’t know much about dog training procedures, so I can’t speak to the methodology, but if you Google the words “Intelligent disobedience,” you can read more about the concept. I’m sure we can all grasp why it would be a good thing for a dog to refuse to walk his master into heavy traffic or off the edge of a train platform, even if that’s what the master wants. How you train a dog to make such distinctions, I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-useful-is-a-seeing-eye-dog/652086/39 "2013-03-07T20:52:04Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > Are there black market seeing eye dogs of some kind? Puppies get tattoos (in their ears) soon after they are born and long before they go to the raiser. And when they get career changed they get spayed right away, like our dog did when she retired as a breeder. In fact they all get spayed if not chosen as a breeder. Our Guide Dogs, at least, is very concerned about dogs being sold as from Guide Dog stock. We understood that our dog was worth something like $60K when she was an active breeder. And because I can’t resist, [picture of our former Guide Dog breeder.](http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-0-6Rr0yPP40/UTXPU9REf6I/AAAAAAAAD9M/g-4sKtRnVy4/s1600/132218_10100124420337498_6208752_o.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-useful-is-a-seeing-eye-dog/652086/40 "2013-03-07T20:52:45Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > No, they can’t do your taxes. Reminds me of a comment in Cecil’s column about [Why Is There Braille on Drive-Up Teller Machines](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/946/why-is-there-braille-on-drive-up-teller-machines): You can’t expect the dog to drive _and_ work the ATM. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-useful-is-a-seeing-eye-dog/652086.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-useful-is-a-seeing-eye-dog/652086.md?page=3)