# How valuable is human life? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 5, 2002, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-valuable-is-human-life/130994 "2002-10-05T20:17:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-valuable-is-human-life/130994/41 "2002-10-09T10:06:47Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally by_ **Joel** : > > When I say value, I mean in the grand scheam of things I hate to say it, **Joel** , but this is no answer. _What_ value “in the grand scheme of things”? There is no value in the grand scheme of things _because value is an entirely subjective concept_. The last people who tried to insist that things have “inherent” value were the Communists and they made a right old mess of it. Object X can only have value in the context of person Y desiring object X in some way. If object X is entirely unloved then it doesn’t matter _what_ it happens to be - it has no value. If Person Y desires object X but Person Z does not then it has value to Person Y but not to Person Z. There is no objective measure of its value. pan ---
**Author:** ![pohjonen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pohjonen/32/423_2.png) [@pohjonen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pohjonen)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-valuable-is-human-life/130994/42 "2002-10-09T11:48:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joel \* > \*\* > Ok, just out of curiosity then, since animals eat other animals, why is it wrong for us to kill, say, a chicken, but it’s ok for a lion to kill a zebra? Or what I mean is, do you believe it’s wrong for any animal to kill any other animal, or are you holding up humans to a higher standard even though you’re saying that we’re just another species of animal no better or worse than the rest? > Oh, my apologies if this sounds hostile, I’m really not trying to be. \*\* Joel, you hit the crux of the matter right here. It is certainly true that a hungry predator larger than I am would have absolutely no compunction about eating ME. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. We humans didn’t invent the food chain, we just have to live within it. Blame God. I still await the OP’s answer to your most pointed question. ---
**Author:** ![pohjonen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pohjonen/32/423_2.png) [@pohjonen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pohjonen)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-valuable-is-human-life/130994/43 "2002-10-09T12:02:31Z")
Joel, you are the OP. DOH! Then I await a response from the others. ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-valuable-is-human-life/130994/44 "2002-10-09T12:49:03Z")
What on earth has personal morality got to do with the “value” of life? A person who chooses not to eat chickens does it because of something which is inherent in that person, not in the chicken. pan ---
**Author:** ![Bloody\_Pollyanna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f14d63/32.png) [@Bloody\_Pollyanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bloody_Pollyanna)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2002, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-valuable-is-human-life/130994/45 "2002-10-10T10:26:57Z")
> [@](#): > > Ok, just out of curiosity then, since animals eat other animals, why is it wrong for us to kill, say, a chicken, but it’s ok for a lion to kill a zebra? Or what I mean is, do you believe it’s wrong for any animal to kill any other animal, or are you holding up humans to a higher standard even though you’re saying that we’re just another species of animal no better or worse than the rest? > Oh, my apologies if this sounds hostile, I’m really not trying to be. You’re making me think and question things here. This is good. I don’t believe it’s wrong for a lion to kill a zebra, and I don’t believe it’s wrong for a human to kill an animal for food. However, I don’t think it’s right that humans breed animals to be killed for food, and that hectares of forest are destroyed every year to provide land for animals to be bred to be killed for food… The way meat is priced disgusts me, that we can place a monetary value on meat, per kilo. That it comes packed in plastic, all cut up ready to be cooked. Everybody is desensitized to it, and… I just don’t think that’s right. I completely understand where you (and everyone else…) is coming from, and it’s not that I don’t want to admit that I’m wrong… I realise my argument is flawed, and I can’t really explain the reasons why I think this way. But I don’t exactly think I’m _wrong_, just need to think about stuff a bit more 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-valuable-is-human-life/130994/46 "2002-10-11T04:26:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eonwe \* > \*\* > > I think you’re missing my point Joel. > > I don’t say that plants are “equal” to us either. I don’t assign any value terms to them at all. Neither “equal” nor “lower” nor “greater.” > > You say you mean value “in the grand scheme of things.” To me “the grand scheme of things” involves the whole operation of existance itself, and in that scheme of things, any “thing” has such little value that it’s all on equal footing. > > As others have said, I think you’d be hard pressed to find a value system independant of your own perceptions, unless this is a religious debate about whether God (or whomever you believe in) values people more than other living things. \*\* I think that there are plenty of atheists that believe that our lives are far more valuable than that of plants and animals and minerals. Ok, some people think that the value of human and animal life is equal, but I don’t think that you have to be religious to believe that human life is far more valuable than that of any kind of plant or mineral. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-valuable-is-human-life/130994/47 "2002-10-11T04:38:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joel \* > **1) If you don’t believe that humans have any sort of spiritual superiority over the other animals, or some sort of special purpose in this world,** Which I don’t. > [@](#): > > **then are our lives any more valuable than that of other animals?** They are to **me.** No other animal on the planet can make grilled cheese sandwiches. Mmmmm, grilled cheese sandwiches. Or, to put it on a somewhat more general plane: The odds of my personal survival, and of the survival of my personal genome, are better enhanced by having other humans around than by having, say, hamsters or grasshoppers or sea anemonies around. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-valuable-is-human-life/130994/48 "2002-10-11T04:38:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kabbes \* > \*\* > I hate to say it, **Joel** , but this is no answer. _What_ value “in the grand scheme of things”? There is no value in the grand scheme of things _because value is an entirely subjective concept_. The last people who tried to insist that things have “inherent” value were the Communists and they made a right old mess of it. > > Object X can only have value in the context of person Y desiring object X in some way. If object X is entirely unloved then it doesn’t matter _what_ it happens to be - it has no value. If Person Y desires object X but Person Z does not then it has value to Person Y but not to Person Z. There is no objective measure of its value. > > pan \*\* So a person has to be desired by somebody else to have any value? Does that mean I can be rude to people when I want if I don’t care what they think? Could I kill somebody if their life meant nothing to me? ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-valuable-is-human-life/130994/49 "2002-10-11T04:48:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bloody Pollyanna \* > \*\* > You’re making me think and question things here. This is good. > > I don’t believe it’s wrong for a lion to kill a zebra, and I don’t believe it’s wrong for a human to kill an animal for food. > However, I don’t think it’s right that humans breed animals to be killed for food, and that hectares of forest are destroyed every year to provide land for animals to be bred to be killed for food… > The way meat is priced disgusts me, that we can place a monetary value on meat, per kilo. That it comes packed in plastic, all cut up ready to be cooked. > Everybody is desensitized to it, and… I just don’t think that’s right. > > I completely understand where you (and everyone else…) is coming from, and it’s not that I don’t want to admit that I’m wrong… I realise my argument is flawed, and I can’t really explain the reasons why I think this way. But I don’t exactly think I’m _wrong_, just need to think about stuff a bit more 🙂 \*\* I think that I understand what you’re getting at. It’s not the killing of an animal by its predator that you object to, but you see the way that humans do it as sometimes, or mostly, wasteful and inhumane? Is that pretty much the gist of it? ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-valuable-is-human-life/130994/50 "2002-10-11T09:49:48Z")
> [@](#): > > So a person has to be desired by somebody **else** to have any value? No, a person just has to be desired by **somebody** to have any value. That person can, of course, be themselves. [/quote] Does that mean I can be rude to people when I want if I don’t care what they think? [/quote] Well yes. And I’m sure that you would be, if you wanted to be and you _truly_ didn’t care what they thought. There’s no law against being rude. > [@](#): > > Could I kill somebody if their life meant nothing to me? Well there certainly _are_ laws against this, so no. Whether your own morality tells you that this law is right or not is up to you. And whether you follow the law or not is up to you. Certainly this Washington sniper doesn’t appear to put much value on human life, does he? Don’t get morality, laws and value mixed up. Your own morality, for example, might dictate “no rudeness”, in which case it is the value you place in yourself - and implicitly in others - that is stopping you being rude. In other words, the very existence of your morality implicitly recognises value in others. What you don’t seem to be getting is that the problem here is not with the glory - or otherwise - of the human condition. The problem here is with the word “value”. Value only makes sense in the context of somebody to ascribe value. There is no “universal” value. pan ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-valuable-is-human-life/130994/51 "2002-10-11T15:44:26Z")
So kabbes, if there weren’t any laws against murder, would it then be ok for me to murder somebody? ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-valuable-is-human-life/130994/52 "2002-10-11T16:06:50Z")
Where the hell did this “OK to murder somebody” come from? You want the morality thread - turn left out of this one and its the 4th thread along. I thought I already cautioned you not to get them mixed up. In the context of this thread, I will simply say that:[ul][li]If your morality allows for murder; and[/li][li]There is no law against murder (can anyone say “outrageously silly premise syndrome”?); and[/li][li]Neither you nor anyone else - including the victim - places any value on the person’s life[/ul]then it would be “OK to murder”.[/li] But then it wouldn’t really be murder, would it? Because murder is _unlawful_ killing. It would just be killing. And killing in the right circumstance is already legal and, to most people’s minds, perfectly OK. For example self-defence, where you have no choice. Wars. Executions in your country. So your whole bizarre shift towards this “murder” thing is entirely misplaced. pan ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2002, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-valuable-is-human-life/130994/53 "2002-10-12T03:46:54Z")
Uhm, first, in a discussion about the value of human life, then also discussing morality, is perfectly valid. And second, are you saying that it’s the governments roll to determine when it’s ok to kill or not? Since the German government in WWII took away the rights of Jews and operated concentration camps, was the killing of the Jews ok since it was government sanctioned? ---
**Author:** ![Pulling\_the\_Strings](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/97f17d/32.png) [@Pulling\_the\_Strings](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pulling_the_Strings)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2002, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-valuable-is-human-life/130994/54 "2002-10-12T07:23:33Z")
If you think human life is worth so much more than an animal’s, try killing someone else’s chicken and see where it gets ya. The cost of the future lain eggs and born chickens is pretty damn expensive! now THAT’s a statistician’s wet dream ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2002, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-valuable-is-human-life/130994/55 "2002-10-12T09:12:41Z")
One final time, I’m not talking monetary value. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2002, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-valuable-is-human-life/130994/56 "2002-10-12T09:12:42Z")
One more time, I’m not talking monetary value. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2002, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-valuable-is-human-life/130994/57 "2002-10-12T11:34:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apos \* > \*\* > When a human is killed, I think that’s generally a much bigger tragedy than when an animal is killed. Animals certainly don’t like death and don’t deserve to be killed for trivial reasons: but human beings are capable of much more deepset psychological attachments and, most importantly, expectations, that are frustrated and broken with their untimely death. > > \*\* I think you don’t understand the definition of Tragedy. That is another discussion though. So a persons worth is measured in how much they have to lose? I would argue with this. If this is fact, and the christians have it right, the death of an animal is even worse than that of a human. If a dog dies, it is gone, forever, where as a human lives on in eternity. When it comes down to it, humans put value on human life because we are human. People put value on things they love, and they have to love themselves. Dog lovers put alot of value on dogs, some art collectors think art is worth more than human lives and so on. All flesh is Grass, so says the bible (no, not preaching, I am an athiest), and grass is pretty valueless(not having value, nothing to do with usefullness). For the argument about worth of souls (if you believe in them), supply and demand baby, the more souls there are, the less value they are. Is somebody that helps advance humanity worth more? From the human perspective, possibly, but that is too subjective. What worth is all of humanity? To a human, a lot. To a race in another galaxy that does not even know we exist, well, life goes on. I think debates like this really show just how objective people can really be. (not very much, though there are a few people that can) ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2002, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-valuable-is-human-life/130994/58 "2002-10-12T11:36:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joel \* > \*\*One more time, I’m not talking monetary value. \*\* I totally missed this. And your OP didn’t mention monetary value at all. Not even in implication. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2002, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-valuable-is-human-life/130994/59 "2002-10-12T17:22:17Z")
Epimetheus, I was replying to what Pulling the Strings said. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2002, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-valuable-is-human-life/130994/60 "2002-10-12T17:40:53Z")
—I think you don’t understand the definition of Tragedy.— Eh? —So a persons worth is measured in how much they have to lose?— Worth in the sense of loss, yes: what else are you going to measure loss by? —I would argue with this.— Would you? That’s nice to know. Be sure to call me when you are willing to explain your arguement. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-valuable-is-human-life/130994.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-valuable-is-human-life/130994.md?page=4)