# How we build the wall and get Mexico to pay for it **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 24, 2017, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-we-build-the-wall-and-get-mexico-to-pay-for-it/794582 "2017-08-24T19:10:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-we-build-the-wall-and-get-mexico-to-pay-for-it/794582/161 "2017-08-27T17:06:29Z")
> [@Alzarian](#): > > Now that the President has clarifies that the mechanism to get Mexico to pay for the wall will be done through Reimbursement/Other it would seem that the United States will make the initial financial investment and send the bill on the Mexico. And President Peña Nieto will then go on tv, address the citizens of Mexico, say that there is no way Mexico is paying for the wall, and toss the bill into the wastebasket/set fire to it/shred it, according to his personal dramatic instincts. What does the American regime do next? You still seem to be under the impression that the US can impose a legal requirement on another sovereign state against its will. That’s not possible. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-we-build-the-wall-and-get-mexico-to-pay-for-it/794582/162 "2017-08-27T17:12:55Z")
> [@Alzarian](#): > > Finally, I’m not sure it is wise to dismiss this plan as simply a campaign promise. If Trump intended not to fulfill the promise - why would he continue to this day to insist that it is a major part if his administrations plan for our nation. Because the President of the United States is a lying con man. He lied his way into the Oval Office, and he knows that he has to keep lying to keep his base happy. If you really think he has a secret plan to get Mexico to pay for the wall, I hate to break it to you, but you’ve been conned. Biggly. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-we-build-the-wall-and-get-mexico-to-pay-for-it/794582/163 "2017-08-27T17:48:57Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Well, no. > > I won’t get into the “property of the state” issue. But as others have noted, the Constitution does allow involuntary servitude for people who have been convicted of crimes. (But see my comments below.) So making prisoners work is legal. > > And the key point is making prisoners work. Not asking them to work or waiting for them to volunteer for work. Prisoners are ordered to work and they do not have the right to refuse. I stand corrected. May be a difference between our systems. But a couple of follow-up questions, if I may. You say they don’t have the right to refuse. What happens if they do refuse? What if Inmate Jones just stays in his cell and says “No” to kitchen duty. Can the corrections officers drag him out of the cell, take him to the kitchen and stand over him until he starts working? What if he still refuses, standing in the kitchen? And, under your system, is a requirement to work just implied in the sentence passed but the court and the fact of imprisonment, or does it need to be express in the sentence? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-we-build-the-wall-and-get-mexico-to-pay-for-it/794582/164 "2017-08-27T17:49:30Z")
> [@Alzarian](#): > > Now that the President has clarifies that the mechanism to get Mexico to pay for the wall will be done through Reimbursement/Other it would seem that the United States will make the initial financial investment and send the bill on the Mexico. What makes you think congress has any intention to fund his idiotic campaign promise? > [@Alzarian](#): > > Finally, I’m not sure it is wise to dismiss this plan as simply a campaign promise. If Trump intended not to fulfill the promise - why would he continue to this day to insist that it is a major part if his administrations plan for our nation. BREAKING NEWS: Pathological liars lie pathologically! ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-we-build-the-wall-and-get-mexico-to-pay-for-it/794582/165 "2017-08-27T18:04:53Z")
> [@Alzarian](#): > > My goal is simply trying to determine how the goals of building the wall and getting Mexico to pay for it may be achieved. But the correct answer as others have indicated is that short of forcing the Mexican government to hand us money at gun point it can’t be. > [@Alzarian](#): > > Now that the President has clarifies that the mechanism to get Mexico to pay for the wall will be done through Reimbursement/Other it would seem that the United States will make the initial financial investment and send the bill on the Mexico. Where upon it will be promptly ignored. This isn’t a plan its a tweet filled with wishful thinking. Using this same method I can claim that I’ll get Mexico to pay to remodel my kitchen. > [@Alzarian](#): > > Finally, I’m not sure it is wise to dismiss this plan as simply a campaign promise. If Trump intended not to fulfill the promise - why would he continue to this day to insist that it is a major part if his administrations plan for our nation. Because he made it the center piece of his of his campaign and so he has to look like he’s achieving something. But like most of his campaign promises (wonderful healthcare, 4% growth, peace in the middle east, pulling out of Afghanistan) He didn’t actually give any thought to how/if it could actually be achieved. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-we-build-the-wall-and-get-mexico-to-pay-for-it/794582/166 "2017-08-27T18:12:46Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > But a couple of follow-up questions, if I may. You say they don’t have the right to refuse. What happens if they do refuse? My understanding is that they can be placed in solitary confinement (ie tortured) until they agree to comply. [Read more here](https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/09/prison-labor-in-america/406177/) ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-we-build-the-wall-and-get-mexico-to-pay-for-it/794582/167 "2017-08-27T18:24:10Z")
> [@Alzarian](#): > > Finally, I’m not sure it is wise to dismiss this plan as simply a campaign promise. If Trump intended not to fulfill the promise - why would he continue to this day to insist that it is a major part if his administrations plan for our nation. I think the most charitable reason for Trump to do this is that he is simply too dumb to understand how the world works. Just like health care was more complicated then give everyone health care at half the cost by tomorrow having another country pay for something that they don’t want to is basically impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-we-build-the-wall-and-get-mexico-to-pay-for-it/794582/168 "2017-08-27T18:47:15Z")
If Trump is serious about this, the only way it could be done would be some way that isn’t too direct on Mexican elected leaders, and in fact is technically out of their control. Because, as \*\*iiandyiiii \*\*and others have pointed out, it would be political suicide of the highest order for any Mexican elected official to consent to pay for the border wall. It would have to be something like - charging higher fees for visas, a fee for every this or that (i.e., a fee for every Mexican airliner landing in the US), high tariffs on Mexican goods (although those are technically paid by Americans, not Mexicans), etc. And even then, of course, that wouldn’t even come close to the $30-50 billion price tag of the wall. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-we-build-the-wall-and-get-mexico-to-pay-for-it/794582/169 "2017-08-27T19:45:36Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Others have mentioned the Eight Amendment but I don’t feel it applies. Building a wall is a legitimate construction project. Having prisoners work in construction is not cruel or unusual. Plenty of non-prisoners work in construction and they don’t seem to find the work unbearable. Due respect, what you “feel” isn’t particularly relevant. Again, in [Weems v. United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weems_v._United_States), a penalty of hard labor for a relatively minor crime was found to violate the constitution. Are you suggesting that this was incorrectly decided, because some people voluntarily engage in hard labor? The standard isn’t “unbearable punishment.” The standard is that “cruel and unusual punishments” shall not be applied. It’s trivially easy to demonstrate that being required to spend ten years building a wall is an unusual punishment. Lemme know if you dispute that, but I doubt you will. As for “cruel,” the conditions are key. The work is likely to be brutal work in extremely hot conditions. It’s the sort of work that some people in peak health with experience in the industry would sign up for, given adequate pay; but folks will sign up for all sorts of experiences that you can’t constitutionally impose on them. Again, read Weems. The hideous idea here is that these brutal conditions would be imposed on people wholly unsuited for this sort of work. And that doesn’t even deal with the length of the sentence. The eighth amendment has been applied to striking down unreasonably long sentences due to their cruelty. There’s a slight chance that Trump could pack the court with enough assholes that they’d let an appalling idea like this stand; but to suggest that an eighth amendment challenge would be weak is incorrect. It’d be a very strong challenge. Of course, this is all theoretical, since there’s zero chance that Alzarian’s idea about Congress taking marching orders from the president is correct. This absurd idea won’t ever be introduced as a bill. ---
**Author:** ![ganthet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de0a6/32.png) [@ganthet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ganthet)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-we-build-the-wall-and-get-mexico-to-pay-for-it/794582/170 "2017-08-27T20:01:52Z")
> [@Alzarian](#): > > Finally, I’m not sure it is wise to dismiss this plan as simply a campaign promise. If Trump intended not to fulfill the promise - why would he continue to this day to insist that it is a major part if his administrations plan for our nation. > [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Because he made it the center piece of his of his campaign and so he has to look like he’s achieving something. But like most of his campaign promises (wonderful healthcare, 4% growth, peace in the middle east, pulling out of Afghanistan) He didn’t actually give any thought to how/if it could actually be achieved. Not just the center piece, this (along with his magical promise to end jobs moving to Mexico, China, or elsewhere) was the white nationalist underpinning behind [Trump’s speech announcing his candidacy](http://time.com/3923128/donald-trump-announcement-speech/) in June 2015: > [@Trump](#): > > It’s true, and these are the best and the finest. When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people. > > But I speak to border guards and they tell us what we’re getting. And it only makes common sense. It only makes common sense. They’re sending us not the right people. > … > I would build a great wall, and nobody builds walls better than me, believe me, and I’ll build them very inexpensively, I will build a great, great wall on our southern border. And I will have Mexico pay for that wall. Since Trump will not be able to follow through on his pledge to prevent manufacturers from relocating elsewhere in the medium/long term, the wall is really Trump’s defining issue that separates him from other Republicans. The base has a picture of brown foreign hordes swarming into the U.S., wave after wave, and Trump was the only one who offered a (pardon the pun) concrete “solution” to the issue other than the typical abstract Republican talking point of just “securing the border.” But since most Americans have no idea what measures and what is already being done at the border, Trump can simply just say that he already built the wall, since there are already portions of fencing and metal barriers in place along certain spans. No Republican is going to challenge him from the right and claim he is lying about a wall being built and advocate for the mass deportation of every single illegal immigrant. And Trump can simply do his usual “fake news” song and dance should any newspaper or news outlet show any sections of the border that do not have significant barriers in place. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-we-build-the-wall-and-get-mexico-to-pay-for-it/794582/171 "2017-08-27T20:05:31Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Due respect, what you “feel” isn’t particularly relevant. This was a shitty way to start my post. Sorry for that. ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Call_Me.Tim)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-we-build-the-wall-and-get-mexico-to-pay-for-it/794582/172 "2017-08-28T00:40:17Z")
There is a clear and obvious method to make Mexico pay for a border wall, and perhaps if all of Trump’s suggestions are implemented it just might happen! It’s terribly simple! 1. First, make conditions in America Greatly horrible. Tank the economy, reduce the country a hideous hellscape. 2. US Citizens will start to flee the country into Mexico in huge numbers, as living conditions there would now be better than in the USA. 3. Mexico would then pay for a border wall to keep all those undesirable gringos from crossing into Mexico, bringing their drugs, crime, rapists, etc. Done! ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-we-build-the-wall-and-get-mexico-to-pay-for-it/794582/173 "2017-08-28T12:02:31Z")
> [@Alzarian](#): > > These are all fair questions, and for the record, I think building a wall along our border with Mexico is an incredibly stupid idea. I just happen to think that while the arguments over whether or not to even build the wall have been played out endlessly, considerably less attention has been given to the question of how one could get Mexico to pay for the wall if we are determined to have one built. That is the question that fascinates me, and my proposal to have actual Mexicans do the building, would in a way, take care of not only getting the wall built, but would also fulfill the ‘requirement’ that it be built by Mexico… or technically - its citizens in this scenario. > > **Once we buy into the premise that we will build a wall, and it will be paid for by Mexico, in one sense or another,** then we can get into the ‘how’ of the question. > > Is it voluntary? - No - not if you break the law by crossing into the country illegally. Because we are not a completely heartless country, you will be permitted one free deportation… but if you return, then you will ‘pay back’ the United States by serving on the wall construction crew. > > What do you feed them? - Food would of course be provided. It does no one any good for the workers to suffer or die. Just as is the case for inmates in our penal system - three square meals a day. Might not be fancy, but it will provide nourishment and sustenance. (And yes, lots and lots of water for hydration.) > > What(if anything) do you pay them? - They will be paid at least minimum wage, bearing in mind that part of their paycheck shall be deducted for the wall. Food and shelter are being provided for free, so there is no need for extra money as they would have no need to buy much of anything. > > Where do you house them? - Makeshift temporary camps, as work on the wall progresses, the need to relocate would require any structure to be temporary in nature. > > Who is going to train them? - Anyone skilled in this sort of construction, and that would include US citizens of course. > > What do you tell the skilled citizens that don’t get the jobs that this project promised? Skilled workers are more than welcome to play their part. It is mainly the ‘grunt’ work that will use the labor of the illegal immigrant. > > As this project would be a huge undertaking, I would be fine with service time on the wall be limited to ten years or so. They could then receive US citizenship. If the wall is still not completed or paid for, future wages could be garnished until it is paid for. This would, I suppose, technically mean that US citizens end up paying for the wall, but with ten years of relatively free labor, I think it would be enough to say that Mexico did its share to make the wall a reality. You’re really putting the cart before the horse here. Sure, you SAY “once you buy in,” but you’re asking us to help you figure out the “how” without going to the trouble of persuading us to buy in first. What’s that you say? I’m fighting the hypothetical? Damn fuckin’ right, I am. Because I don’t hate America, which is more than can be said for that sorry-ass fuckstick who’s been befouling the Oval Office for the past seven months. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-we-build-the-wall-and-get-mexico-to-pay-for-it/794582/174 "2017-08-28T12:41:46Z")
> [@Alzarian](#): > > Now that the President has clarifies that the mechanism to get Mexico to pay for the wall will be done through Reimbursement/Other it would seem that the United States will make the initial financial investment and send the bill on the Mexico. “Reiumbursement/Other” is not a clarification. The set of things that are included in “Reimbursement/Other” is literally infinite. That is the furthest thing from a clarification that something can possibly be. Dude, I’ve got news for you; Mexico is not paying for the wall. The probability of Mexico paying for a giant wall in the United States is zero, and was always zero, and nobody who was serious ever thought otherwise. There is no chance, none, that Mexico will pay for the wall. It’s been alluded to that they might pay at gunpoint, and while it is theoretically possible (and a non zero chance with Trump in charge) that the U.S. could literally extort money by threat of force, _Mexico still wouldn’t be paying for the wall; they would be paying to not be threatened anymore._ If I come to your house, put a gun to your head, and demand you give me $30,000 because I want to build a new deck with a hot tub, you are not paying for my renovations, you’re paying me not to shoot you. Short of threat of force Mexico will not pay for it, nor should they. On no level does it make sense for them to pay for it, so they will not. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-we-build-the-wall-and-get-mexico-to-pay-for-it/794582/175 "2017-08-28T12:46:51Z")
Alzarian, do you own a shovel? If you do, then the solution to your question is in your own hands. Go to your southern border, and start digging. If you do not own a shovel, then borrow some money, buy a shovel, go to the southern border, and start digging. If you do not have credit to buy a shovel, then get a better education, get a better job, build better credit, buy a shovel, go to the southern border, and start digging. If you are not willing to do this, then you do not love 'merica, so sneak into Mexico and send what you earn there back to the Dear Leader of the Free World in Mar-a-Lago so he can buy himself a shovel and build a wall and fill in his neighbourhood sinkholes while he’s at it. Problem solved. ---
**Author:** ![Alzarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@Alzarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alzarian)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-we-build-the-wall-and-get-mexico-to-pay-for-it/794582/176 "2017-08-28T15:46:39Z")
There was a news report this morning that says that Mexico will be sending aid to those affected by the hurricane in Texas. Could some of this gift be earmarked towards the building of the wall? One could surely find some creative way to justify wall-expenditure as a necessary part of the hurricane recovery process. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-we-build-the-wall-and-get-mexico-to-pay-for-it/794582/177 "2017-08-28T15:54:28Z")
You really should consider thinking about what you are posting before you post it. Do you honestly believe that specifically directed emergency relief aid should be redirected to your pet project? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-we-build-the-wall-and-get-mexico-to-pay-for-it/794582/178 "2017-08-28T15:57:19Z")
> [@Alzarian](#): > > There was a news report this morning that says that Mexico will be sending aid to those affected by the hurricane in Texas. Could some of this gift be earmarked towards the building of the wall? One could surely find some creative way to justify wall-expenditure as a necessary part of the hurricane recovery process. What is it called when funds specifically earmarked for one purpose are stolen and used for another purpose(and don’t _even_ try to pull that “wall-expenditure as a necessary part of the hurricane recovery process” bullshit)? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-we-build-the-wall-and-get-mexico-to-pay-for-it/794582/179 "2017-08-28T16:53:49Z")
> [@Alzarian](#): > > There was a news report this morning that says that Mexico will be sending aid to those affected by the hurricane in Texas. Could some of this gift be earmarked towards the building of the wall? One could surely find some creative way to justify wall-expenditure as a necessary part of the hurricane recovery process. What the fuck are you even talking about?? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-we-build-the-wall-and-get-mexico-to-pay-for-it/794582/180 "2017-08-28T17:03:20Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > What the fuck are you even talking about?? [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20437096&postcount=3435](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20437096&postcount=3435) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-we-build-the-wall-and-get-mexico-to-pay-for-it/794582.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-we-build-the-wall-and-get-mexico-to-pay-for-it/794582.md?page=10)