# How Well Can Humans Maintain a Tempo? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 6, 2012, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-well-can-humans-maintain-a-tempo/643142 "2012-12-06T01:06:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-well-can-humans-maintain-a-tempo/643142/61 "2012-12-07T15:22:40Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > The Meyerson symphony center in Dallas, where the DSO plays, is extremely difficult to play in. You often simply can’t hear the people on the other side of the stage, and, even when you can, there’s often a big sound delay. People who are closer to you on stage are easy to hear, but someone on the opposite side can be very difficult or impossible to hear. > > It’s no big deal when the entire orchestra is playing, but if it’s just you and some people on the other side of the stage playing together in a quiet passage, it’s just ridiculous. Hopefully, you’d have a conductor up there keeping everybody in sync? Or is this one of those Baroque conduct from the harpsichord or first-violin chair jobs? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-well-can-humans-maintain-a-tempo/643142/62 "2012-12-07T15:32:40Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Speaking of rhythmic tricks of the sort, [this Harry Connick, Jr. video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD3iaURppQw) is one of my favorites. The French audience is clapping on the 1 & 3, which is kind of verboten in jazz/blues/rock music. So he sneakily inserts an extra beat a few bars after beginning his solo, and turns the clapping around to 2 & 4. I always get a kick out of that video. Clever quick thinking. I like that. 🙂 Remember Oskar in The Tin Drum changing the rhythm of a Nazi rally march into a waltz and getting everybody waltzing until the Nazis are totally ignored? One of my favorite uses of rhythm anywhere. Your story reminds me of Dave Barry’s test for terminal Republicanism: Clap along to Ray Charles’s song “Hit the Road, Jack.” If you clap on the 1 and 3 instead of the 2 and 4, there’s no hope for you. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-well-can-humans-maintain-a-tempo/643142/63 "2012-12-07T15:42:24Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > So he sneakily inserts an extra beat a few bars after beginning his solo [snip] To be precise, it’s actually the second bar of the solo where he lets an extra beat in. So, once the solo starts, you can count 4, then 5, then back to 4 with the audience clapping on the backbeat. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-well-can-humans-maintain-a-tempo/643142/64 "2012-12-07T16:21:26Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Speaking of rhythmic tricks of the sort, [this Harry Connick, Jr. video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD3iaURppQw) is one of my favorites. The French audience is clapping on the 1 & 3, which is kind of verboten in jazz/blues/rock music. So he sneakily inserts an extra beat a few bars after beginning his solo, and turns the clapping around to 2 & 4. I always get a kick out of that video. Clever quick thinking. That really was a thing of beauty. The magic moment occurs at 0:40. A cultural ambassador in a “culture hero” role like Prometheus or [Deganawida](http://www.biographi.ca/009004-119.01-e.php?&id_nbr=163)—teaching Europeans how to listen to American jazz. You know, I thought the French had this concept down some 80 years ago, by the time Sidney Bechet joined them. But it seems we have failed the new generation. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-well-can-humans-maintain-a-tempo/643142/65 "2012-12-07T18:36:12Z")
The Connick video is superb. I have to say, however–in defense of French audiences, perhaps–that Connick was piling up all sorts of rhythmic riffs in succession, without, to me, particular meaning beyond the the observation of how many notes can be played well against a sixteenth-rocked four. A little like a Pagannini etude, but not played by a virtuoso, which kind of vitiates the effect. He truly is an artist of the voice. I believe that at a concert of any of the boogie-woogie piano masters, who speak through the keyboard, the clapping would be arrested in track from the beginning. I could be wrong, of course. For any unfamiliar with what I mean, see, e.g., [Spann’s Boogie](http://youtu.be/QSX9nlNMjVY). ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-well-can-humans-maintain-a-tempo/643142/66 "2012-12-07T18:39:04Z")
Spann, amusingly enough, in the cite above gets completely wonkered as he kicks it off. Gets the rhythm though. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-well-can-humans-maintain-a-tempo/643142/67 "2012-12-07T23:01:10Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > The Connick video is superb. I have to say, however–in defense of French audiences, perhaps–that Connick was piling up all sorts of rhythmic riffs in succession, without, to me, particular meaning beyond the the observation of how many notes can be played well against a sixteenth-rocked four. A little like a Pagannini etude, but not played by a virtuoso, which kind of vitiates the effect. I personally think that’s selling Connick short. I don’t find that piece particularly pyrotechnic or flashy, just standard New Orleans style piano a la Dr. John. It’s really not that hard to hear the “ONE” there. My favorite album of his is “20,” which is about half piano solos. I like him primarily for his piano playing. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-well-can-humans-maintain-a-tempo/643142/68 "2012-12-07T23:27:45Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Getting back to the OP: Two musicians in separate rooms would vary, not merely because of their ability to maintain a tempo, but because of their interpretation of the music . . . even if subconsciously. You might get better results with the same musician recorded at different times. But even then, subconscious factors would still vary. Right – most music isn’t performed with straight timing, unless it’s intentionally recorded to a click track to simplify overdubs later. At least, this is true of most pop, rock, blues, jazz, and classical. Some styles are intentionally mechanical/electronic sounding and of course that’s different. So, using music, it would have to be a song where exact timing is expected. Bluegrass might be an example, but I’m not sure [/QUOTE] > [@CookingWithGas](#): > > Sometimes skilled musicians in the \*same \*room get out of sync. 🙂 Especially if one of them is me. 😉 > [@K364](#): > > But there have been observations of perfect tempo keeping in Rock Band as well… usually in more recent productions. It is assumed that the perfect ones used computers/drum machines/etc. to keep time. Bottom line, musicians can keep good time, but are far from machine-like. Something I sometimes do for fun is to try to replicate all the parts to a popular song, and see how close to the original I can get. When I do, the first thing I do is load the original into my workstation software, and build a tempo map. It’s a tedious process, but usually takes me an hour or two for one song. I’ve done a number of artists from Steely Dan to Bonnie Raitt. The first thing that’s obvious is whether the original used a click track or not (Steely Dan usually does, but didn’t on Aja.) Those are the easy ones, just a few corrections here and there due to use of tape in the mastering process. One of the most unusual was Drive My Car by the Beatles. I knew they couldn’t have used a click track due to not having enough tracks in those days. But Ringo (actually the whole band) was remarkably rock solid; it was almost like setting the tempo map to a song that had been recorded to a click on tape. I was surprised, because though I like Ringo, I never thought of him as technically superior. But he sure could keep a steady beat, at least in that song. [quote=“pulykamell, post:23, topic:643142”] So far as I can find anything approaching a cite, there’s [this](http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2012/07/when-the-beat-goes-off/): > [@](#): > > Though the drummer is a professional, like all humans, his rhythm is imperfect. Each time his hand hits the drum, his beat falls ahead or behind the metronome by 10 to 20 milliseconds. On average, he anticipates the beat, and plays ahead of it, 16 milliseconds ahead — less than the time it takes a person to blink, or a dragonfly to flap its wings. What the physicists want to know is: Are these errors random, or correlated in a way that can be expressed by a mathematical law? Well, a good drummer isn’t smack on the beat; depending on the style, he’s “in the pocket” and it involves being ahead or behind the beat in various (but fairly predicatable) places. More important is being tight with the bassist. The bass drum and bass (fiddle or guitar) should sound like one instrument. > [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > 😕 “Feedback” monitor? “Foldback” is a common term, used mostly abroad, for a musician’s monitor. In the US we mostly say “monitor” but in the studio there are two monitors: control room monitor and musicians cue. Foldback is a synonym for “musician’s cue”. Folks who call the cue foldback are also likely to use the term “howlaround” for what we call feedback. Those other folks are using more specific words in both cases. We Americans should communicate so well. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-well-can-humans-maintain-a-tempo/643142/69 "2012-12-07T23:30:46Z")
> [@Pitchmeister](#): > > I’ve heard it thusly: > > How does a singer count a 7/8 beat? > > One. > Two. > Three. > Four. > Five. > Six. > Sev. > En. > One. > Two. > Three. > Four. > Five. > Six. > Sev. > En. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/OcaYhGEzKD8/hqdefault.jpg "Austin McBride Jazz Lessons- 5/4 Timing (revisited)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcaYhGEzKD8) ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-well-can-humans-maintain-a-tempo/643142/70 "2012-12-08T00:08:56Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Your story reminds me of Dave Barry’s test for terminal Republicanism: Clap along to Ray Charles’s song “Hit the Road, Jack.” If you clap on the 1 and 3 instead of the 2 and 4, there’s no hope for you. Would a Republican even clap to “Hit The Road Jack”? 😉 I played in a jazz workshop a few years ago and the piano player in my group was having trouble with some of the rhythms and syncopation. One instructor, who was a drummer, sang the head and told the pianist to clap along. He clapped on 1 and 3. The instructor said, “Well, there’s your problem.” ---
**Author:** ![CC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CC)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-well-can-humans-maintain-a-tempo/643142/71 "2012-12-08T00:09:45Z")
This is most likely: he has a terrific sense of tempo. He can hear a tempo and walk away, do some stuff, and come back, and when asked for that tempo, can very very closely approximate it. That is considerably different from keeping the tempo TO THE BEAT for an hour. If he were extremely good at keeping a tempo, in one hour, if he had slipped out of synch just one beat (out of 3600), you’d never know. You’d be amazed that he could be so closely aligned with the metronome’s tempo, but in fact, he might have been off. But lots of musicians have a great sense of time. And, I’d guess that some of the best musicians could do that fairly well. Maybe being off a few strokes out of 3600. What a lot of people don’t realize is how fantastically talented some musicians are - more than seems humanly possible. Ask someone about the mystical talents of conductors, for instances of uncanny abilities. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-well-can-humans-maintain-a-tempo/643142/72 "2012-12-08T00:27:33Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > Well, a good drummer isn’t smack on the beat; depending on the style, he’s “in the pocket” and it involves being ahead or behind the beat in various (but fairly predicatable) places. Well, yes, I do mention that in my first (ETA: second) post on the topic. “Strict” metronomic precision isn’t desirable from a drummer. But I don’t think it’s possible, either, and this study shows rhythms drift from ahead to behind the beat when playing to a metronome. I would think that without the metronome, we would see much larger deviations. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-well-can-humans-maintain-a-tempo/643142/73 "2012-12-08T00:31:02Z")
> [@CC](#): > > This is most likely: he has a terrific sense of tempo. He can hear a tempo and walk away, do some stuff, and come back, and when asked for that tempo, can very very closely approximate it. Yep. That makes sense. Very good percussionists can give you a pretty damned close 120 bpm (for example) on demand. I wouldn’t be surprised if some can give you within 1 or possibly even a half bpm consistently. > [@](#): > > That is considerably different from keeping the tempo TO THE BEAT for an hour. If he were extremely good at keeping a tempo, in one hour, if he had slipped out of synch just one beat (out of 3600), you’d never know. Yes. The difference between 120 bpm and 119.95 bpm (an error of 0.04%) is 3 beats. No way a human is that perfect over an hour, especially while doing other things. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-well-can-humans-maintain-a-tempo/643142/74 "2012-12-08T03:18:45Z")
As long as we’re talking about what “on the beat” means, tubas and trombones also are encouraged to (begin to) sound ever-so-slightly early, as their resonance ramps up. ---
**Author:** ![Garula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ea666f/32.png) [@Garula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garula)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-well-can-humans-maintain-a-tempo/643142/75 "2012-12-08T05:52:59Z")
Very interesting! Most of this has gone over my musically inept head, but it’s definitely given me a better idea of what people are capable of. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-well-can-humans-maintain-a-tempo/643142/76 "2012-12-08T11:35:16Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > As long as we’re talking about what “on the beat” means, tubas and trombones also are encouraged to (begin to) sound ever-so-slightly early, as their resonance ramps up. No wonder they always sound sloppy. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-well-can-humans-maintain-a-tempo/643142/77 "2012-12-08T13:24:25Z")
Richard Strauss, I think, said that if you hear the brass – presumably in spread out chords – they’re too loud. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-well-can-humans-maintain-a-tempo/643142/78 "2012-12-08T13:36:33Z")
> [@Pitchmeister](#): > > …How does a singer count a 7/8 beat?.. BTW, Dave Brubeck, who brought 5/4 to more Westerners than any other artist, including Tchaikovsky, and in general, I think, did the most to have the most peole made simply aware of non-duple or triple rhthms, died on 12/5. Nice coincidence of date. [Take 5](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2In5a9LDNg&feature=youtube_gdata_player) ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-well-can-humans-maintain-a-tempo/643142/79 "2012-12-09T05:18:45Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Hopefully, you’d have a conductor up there keeping everybody in sync? Few conductors are good enough to keep everyone together all the time. The conductor has to convince the musicians, through posture/gesture/facial expression/etc., that he is to be followed, instead of either 1. the strongest rhythmic influence currently playing (often the timpani or low brass) 2. the person sitting next to them. As a timpanist, I often found it necessary to listen _very_ carefully, to avoid creating rhythmic chaos. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-well-can-humans-maintain-a-tempo/643142/80 "2012-12-09T05:36:05Z")
Well, how _thoughtful_ of you. ::grumble sotto voce as he slinks from the podium:: …Fucking tympanists… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-well-can-humans-maintain-a-tempo/643142.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-well-can-humans-maintain-a-tempo/643142.md?page=5)