# How were first animals domesticated? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 5, 2015, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-first-animals-domesticated/724301 "2015-07-05T09:08:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-first-animals-domesticated/724301/21 "2015-07-05T23:17:40Z")
Most domesticated species naturally live in a group like a pack (dogs) or a herd (horses, cattle, sheep, goats), so that when domesticated, a human takes over as ‘leader of the pack’ – this is not a significant change from their wild behavior. But this doesn’t apply to cats. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-first-animals-domesticated/724301/22 "2015-07-06T03:18:52Z")
There’s been a project running in Russia to domesticate wild foxes by selective breeding. [They seem to have basically succeeded in just 50 years](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox). So it’s probably not as hard is it looks, for animals with a suitable temperament (or the genetic capacity to acquire it) in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-first-animals-domesticated/724301/23 "2015-07-06T03:37:29Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > There’s been a project running in Russia to domesticate wild foxes by selective breeding. [They seem to have basically succeeded in just 50 years](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox). > > So it’s probably not as hard is it looks, for animals with a suitable temperament (or the genetic capacity to acquire it) in the first place. That could be more than [50 generations of red foxes](http://animaldiversity.org/accounts/Vulpes_vulpes/): > [@](#): > > Sexual maturity is reached by 10 months It’s a very intensive breeding process and it’s unlikely primitive people attempted it unless they had a good idea that the end result would be a useful animal. I think the concept of selective breeding and success at it would have come from readily tamable animals. The process would have started before metal cages and heavy fencing was available so natural barriers or more controllable animals would have been the first to be intentionally domesticated. Possibly dogs led the way, some isolated sub-species of wolf that first developed a symbiotic relationship with humans. An animal would have to be controlled somehow and no danger to humans, and need to be recognized as more useful to keep for breeding than as food or raw materials before intentional domestication began, though with dogs perhaps uncontrolled breeding still led to further domestication. As for cats, it’s well known that they domesticated us. ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-first-animals-domesticated/724301/24 "2015-07-06T05:53:19Z")
Guns, Germs, & Steel is a great book. But skip the TV show. Unwatchably bad. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-first-animals-domesticated/724301/25 "2015-07-06T13:50:00Z")
There is an article in this month’s Scientific American on the domestication of dogs. Although the case is not airtight (by far) they feel basically that wolves domesticated themselves as suggested upthread. They also mention the Russian fox experiment. It seems that a lot of domestication consists of neoteny (persistence of childhood traits). And yes cats certainly domesticated us. In one of Jane Jacobs’s books, she speculates on the domestication of herd animals. For her, everything revolved around cities, so this has to be taken with a certain caution. Still it is interesting. She pictures trading posts as precursors of cities. A hunter might trade meat for vegetables from a gatherer. Dead meat doesn’t keep very well, so the hunter might try to capture live animals and the traders would have built pens to keep them in. Some of the animals would breed and the trader would see his stock increase. Of course, he had to keep them fed, but maybe if the pen was big enough they could keep themselves fed. Over the years, he might identify the more docile animals and deliberately try to breed them thus beginning the road to full domestication. Once it was seen for one animal, they might then have tried to do it consciously for another. I cannot imagine the accidental domestication happening for an aurochs, but perhaps some variety of sheep. Jacobs similarly imagined farming as developing from grain accidentally dropped at a trading post, but that is a whole nother tale. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-first-animals-domesticated/724301/26 "2015-07-06T14:20:46Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > In one of Jane Jacobs’s books, she speculates on the domestication of herd animals. For her, everything revolved around cities, so this has to be taken with a certain caution. Still it is interesting. She pictures trading posts as precursors of cities. A hunter might trade meat for vegetables from a gatherer. Dead meat doesn’t keep very well, so the hunter might try to capture live animals and the traders would have built pens to keep them in. Some of the animals would breed and the trader would see his stock increase. _Of course, he had to keep them fed_, but maybe if the pen was big enough they could keep themselves fed. Over the years, he might identify the more docile animals and deliberately try to breed them thus beginning the road to full domestication. Once it was seen for one animal, they might then have tried to do it consciously for another. I cannot imagine the accidental domestication happening for an aurochs, but perhaps some variety of sheep. This is a plausible explanation for the domestication of livestock. The italicized part is important, I think livestock domestication may have followed agricultural development of feed for the animals. Possibly the domestication of dogs also, hunting dogs who would drive prey toward the hunters would be very valuable and well kept. Those same dogs could easily have been used as herders. ---
**Author:** ![rbroome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/838e76/32.png) [@rbroome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rbroome)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-first-animals-domesticated/724301/27 "2015-07-06T17:38:15Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I’m currently reading guns germs and steel. it doesn’t go into extensive detail but if you are interested in the topic in general it is a must read. It is very very good for talking about how humans in general developed agriculture and the tools that came along with it and the weapons that followed. It also explains why certain areas did not develop. Basically, if you don’t have wild rice or wild wheat nearby, you will not be able to transition to an agricultural society. Similarly if you do not have copper and iron in the ground/hills near where you live you will not be able to make tools or weapons out of those materials. Very simple ideas when you think about it, so simple in fact, it gets overlooked in most narratives of history. > > There is a video as well but I have not seen it: > [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojU31yHDqiM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojU31yHDqiM) This may not be correct. Consider the early inhabitants of Peru-they had a fish and cotton based economy with no rice or wheat. And of course the Mayan civilizations did just fine without either grain. For a non-technical explanation see “1491” by Charles Mann. A very thought provoking book. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-first-animals-domesticated/724301/28 "2015-07-06T18:54:18Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > For livestock even if they’re not very tame as adults they may lose their fear of humans and become easy prey later, possibly leaving more wild offspring to raise. So the concept of domestication through breeding may have arisen from a simpler cycle that didn’t require enclosures or breeding. That seems unlikely. If a herd of animals were living close to humans then you would expect the animals that were unafraid of humans to be the first ones hunted and eaten, thereby removing those human-tolerant genes from the herd. Contact between a wild herd and a human tribe of hunters would normally result in the herd becoming more afraid of humans as time went on. And the megafauna extinction in places like America and Australia supports this. So the only way a species of herd animals would be bred to tolerate human contact is if the humans were controlling their breeding. It appears possession of herd animals has to proceed domestication. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-first-animals-domesticated/724301/29 "2015-07-06T19:05:10Z")
ETA: nm, I’ll reword the whole post later ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-first-animals-domesticated/724301/30 "2015-07-06T20:42:38Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’ve heard this theory about about wild cats living alongside human communities. Humans would build granaries to store food. Mice and rats would infest the granaries because of the food supply we were making available. Wild cats would then start living in the granaries because the mice and rats were providing them with a food supply. This would go on for generations and you’d end up with cats which were theoretically feral but which had grown up in human communities. > > This seems plausible to me. I’ve worked on farms that were full of “barn cats” that lived like this. Even today the leopard cat (_Felis bengalensis)_ which can be bred with the Domestic cat, will live sometimes in a village, eating the rodents and in harmony with the humans. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-first-animals-domesticated/724301/31 "2015-07-06T20:57:28Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Even today the leopard cat (_Felis bengalensis)_ which can be bred with the Domestic cat, will live sometimes in a village, eating the rodents and in harmony with the humans. Other examples are the pigeons and squirrels that live in modern cities. Humans aren’t hunting them but we are dropping food all over the place. So wild pigeons and squirrels that lose their fear of humans do better than the pigeons and squirrels that avoid human contact. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-first-animals-domesticated/724301/32 "2015-07-06T21:07:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Even today the leopard cat (_Felis bengalensis)_ which can be bred with the Domestic cat, will live sometimes in a village, eating the rodents and in harmony with the humans. Can humans approach juvenile leopard cats, or will even the young cats scurry away every time? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-first-animals-domesticated/724301/33 "2015-07-06T21:30:36Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > Can humans approach juvenile leopard cats, or will even the young cats scurry away every time? I dunno, they do say that adults “rarely allow humans to touch or handle them”. So that seems to indicate that adults sometimes allow it and that kittens may do so more often. But even those raised in captivity from birth (they are used to breed with domestic cats to produce Bengal cats) are 'wild" and skittish, but rarely fierce. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-first-animals-domesticated/724301/34 "2015-07-07T02:59:57Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > That could be more than [50 generations of red foxes](http://animaldiversity.org/accounts/Vulpes_vulpes/): > It’s a very intensive breeding process and it’s unlikely primitive people attempted it unless they had a good idea that the end result would be a useful animal. I think the concept of selective breeding and success at it would have come from readily tamable animals. The process would have started before metal cages and heavy fencing was available so natural barriers or more controllable animals would have been the first to be intentionally domesticated. Possibly dogs led the way, some isolated sub-species of wolf that first developed a symbiotic relationship with humans. An animal would have to be controlled somehow and no danger to humans, and need to be recognized as more useful to keep for breeding than as food or raw materials before intentional domestication began, though with dogs perhaps uncontrolled breeding still led to further domestication. I’m not suggesting that it happened that way in history, but it does show that canids have an “aptitude” for it, if you like, they are intrinsically domesticable. And it may not be just us: [Monkeys’ cosy alliance with wolves looks like domestication](http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn27675-monkeys-cosy-alliance-with-wolves-looks-like-domestication.html#.VZtAZfmqpHw). ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-first-animals-domesticated/724301/35 "2015-07-07T03:50:05Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > And it may not be just us: [Monkeys’ cosy alliance with wolves looks like domestication](http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn27675-monkeys-cosy-alliance-with-wolves-looks-like-domestication.html#.VZtAZfmqpHw). That is really cool. But who is domesticating who? The wolves are getting food, what do the monkeys get? Protection? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-first-animals-domesticated/724301/36 "2015-07-07T04:09:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I dunno, they do say that adults “rarely allow humans to touch or handle them”. So that seems to indicate that adults sometimes allow it and that kittens may do so more often. This doesn’t distinguish them from feral _felis catus_ in any way whatsoever. In fact, the same could be said of many of the barn cats when I was a kid on the farm. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-first-animals-domesticated/724301/37 "2015-07-07T07:36:41Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Sheep and some other animals are fairly passive anyway, grab them while they’re young, raise them and you’ve got something fairly domesticated. I think that might have played a big role. Young animals are cute and cuddly, so maybe hunters find and kill Mommy and Daddy but can’t bring themselves to kill Babby too, or to leave them to die either so they take them home with them instead. Happens in nature with wild animals too, once in a while (I remember one nature program about a monkey of some description rescuing a tiger cub) > [@](#): > > That is really cool. But who is domesticating who? The wolves are getting food, what do the monkeys get? Protection? Not getting eaten 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-first-animals-domesticated/724301/38 "2015-07-07T19:02:13Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I’m currently reading guns germs and steel. it doesn’t go into extensive detail but if you are interested in the topic in general it is a must read. It is very very good for talking about how humans in general developed agriculture and the tools that came along with it and the weapons that followed. It also explains why certain areas did not develop. Basically, if you don’t have wild rice or wild wheat nearby, you will not be able to transition to an agricultural society. Similarly if you do not have copper and iron in the ground/hills near where you live you will not be able to make tools or weapons out of those materials. Very simple ideas when you think about it, so simple in fact, it gets overlooked in most narratives of history. > > There is a video as well but I have not seen it: > [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojU31yHDqiM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojU31yHDqiM) > [@rbroome](#): > > This may not be correct. Consider the early inhabitants of Peru-they had a fish and cotton based economy with no rice or wheat. And of course the Mayan civilizations did just fine without either grain. For a non-technical explanation see “1491” by Charles Mann. A very thought provoking book. Robert163 was probably overstating for simplification. In his book, Diamond takes pains to point out the cases of plant and animal domestication occurred in the Americas. It’s not that indigenous Americans did not or could not domesticate, but that they had poor “raw materials” and strong “headwinds” (that is, fairly few small domesticable animals, more difficult plants, and a north-south continental axis which did not favor spread of successful cultivars). Perhaps the Mayans “did just fine” without rice/wheat/pulses; Jared Diamond argues that they may have done much better with them (and cows/sheep/horses). ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-first-animals-domesticated/724301/39 "2015-07-07T19:16:37Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I think that might have played a big role. Young animals are cute and cuddly, so maybe hunters find and kill Mommy and Daddy but can’t bring themselves to kill Babby too, or to leave them to die either so they take them home with them instead. Happens in nature with wild animals too, once in a while (I remember one nature program about a monkey of some description rescuing a tiger cub) That’s along the lines of what I was thinking. Little Nemo pointed out the problem that hunting the adults who were raised by humans and less afraid of them could get depopulated before you had anything going. But something like that might give them the idea to try out once they had a means of controlling the adults. Also, in general, I don’t know where the dairy animals fit into this. Were wild sheep tame enough to milk? Would an aurochs cow stand still for that? > [@](#): > > Not getting eaten 🙂 So far. Maybe the wolves have a plan. It sounds more like the wolves domesticating the monkeys. Maybe they’ll end up herding them toward the best supply of rodents. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-first-animals-domesticated/724301/40 "2015-07-07T21:24:48Z")
> [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](#): > > Robert163 was probably overstating for simplification. In his book, Diamond takes pains to point out the cases of plant and animal domestication occurred in the Americas. It’s not that indigenous Americans did not or could not domesticate, but that they had poor “raw materials” and strong “headwinds” (that is, fairly few small domesticable animals, more difficult plants, and a north-south continental axis which did not favor spread of successful cultivars). Perhaps the Mayans “did just fine” without rice/wheat/pulses; Jared Diamond argues that they may have done much better with them (and cows/sheep/horses). I could be mistaken (since it’s been a while since I’ve read the book), but I don’t recall it claiming the lack of wheat and rice as a disadvantage for the Native American civilizations. Maize and amaranth were just about as good and the potato probably better. What the Americas lacked was a large draft animal. But they did as well as they could with this handicap. To put some recent science into this discussion, there was a report that the domestication of dogs was as long ago as 27,000 to 40,000 years ago. [link](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/05/150521133626.htm) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-first-animals-domesticated/724301.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-first-animals-domesticated/724301.md?page=3)