# How were the pyramids in Egypt built? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 7, 2014, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559 "2014-12-07T10:40:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/61 "2014-12-09T15:50:30Z")
> [@XT](#): > > It depends on how you interpret ‘pay’. If by ‘pay’ you mean in money, then you are correct. As you noted, a lot of the common laborers were doing their labor as part of paying their taxes. They were, in addition however ‘paid’ in good and plentiful food, beer, housing and medical care, as well as other things, at least by some of the worker art and writing I’ve seen. 😛 Yup. Importantly, they were not “slaves” - in that they were not considered, and apparently did not consider themselves, as unfree or degraded. However, they were not “employees” in that they lacked choice - it wasn’t the plentiful beer that attracted them to the job, but rather a conscription officer. 😉 Perhaps a modern analogy woulld be conscripted soldiers - they have no choice but do not consider themselves “slaves” or degraded by their service. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/62 "2014-12-09T15:56:22Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Yup. Importantly, they were not “slaves” - in that they were not considered, and apparently did not consider themselves, as unfree or degraded. However, they were not “employees” in that they lacked choice - it wasn’t the plentiful beer that attracted them to the job, but rather a conscription officer. 😉 > > Perhaps a modern analogy woulld be conscripted soldiers - they have no choice but do not consider themselves “slaves” or degraded by their service. I disagree with the conscription angle as it implies a certain unwillingness or forced labor, which I don’t think was the case. Maybe I’m misremembering (or maybe this is a piece of History Channel fluff I picked up :p), but from what I recall actually people vied with each other to work on these projects. They were kind of cushy jobs (compared to the labor they would have had to do every day anyway), and the food and drink were definitely part of the perks. There was also the aspect that they were doing this for their god/king, and in the expectation that if he was resurrected and joined his brother and sister gods he’d be able to intercede for them as well (and, of course, the idea of a resurrection machine for everyone really started in building these great works for the elite first…there were workers graveyards and tombs for the more elite workers as well). ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/63 "2014-12-09T16:05:05Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I disagree with the conscription angle as it implies a certain unwillingness or forced labor, which I don’t think was the case. Maybe I’m misremembering (or maybe this is a piece of History Channel fluff I picked up :p), but from what I recall actually people vied with each other to work on these projects. They were kind of cushy jobs (compared to the labor they would have had to do every day anyway), and the food and drink were definitely part of the perks. There was also the aspect that they were doing this for their god/king, and in the expectation that if he was resurrected and joined his brother and sister gods he’d be able to intercede for them as well (and, of course, the idea of a resurrection machine for everyone really started in building these great works for the elite first…there were workers graveyards and tombs for the more elite workers as well). That’s a gloss that basically comes from that “enthusiastic” Zahi Hawass fellow. Decide for yourself how seriously to take it. 😉 > [@](#): > > Almost every family in Egypt was either directly or indirectly involved in pyramid building. The pyramid labourers were clearly not slaves. They may well have been the unwilling victims of the corvée or compulsory labour system, the system that allowed the pharaoh to compel his people to work for three or four month shifts on state projects. If this is the case, we may imagine that they were selected at random from local registers. > > Almost every family in Egypt was either directly or indirectly involved in pyramid building. > > But, in a complete reversal of the story of oppression told by Herodotus, Lehner and Hawass have suggested that the labourers may have been volunteers. Zahi Hawass believes that the symbolism of the pyramid was already strong enough to encourage people to volunteer for the supreme national project. Mark Lehner has gone further, comparing pyramid building to American Amish barn raising, which is done on a volunteer basis. He might equally well have compared it to the staffing of archaeological digs, which tend to be manned by enthusiastic, unpaid volunteers supervised by a few paid professionals. > **[BBC - History - Ancient History in depth: The Private Lives of the...](https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/egyptians/pyramid_builders_01.shtml)** > > Dr Joyce Tyldesley reveals the people behind some of the world's most famous strictures. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/64 "2014-12-09T16:11:27Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > That’s a gloss that basically comes from that “enthusiastic” Zahi Hawass fellow. Decide for yourself how seriously to take it. 😉 > > [BBC - History - Ancient History in depth: The Private Lives of the Pyramid-builders](http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/egyptians/pyramid_builders_01.shtml) That’s what the aliens WANT us to think! (It probably was Hawass, as he’s often on the History Channel talking this stuff. I seem to recall I got the ‘cushy job’ part from an Egyptian woman…quite pretty…who is also an archeologist talking about the worker camps) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/65 "2014-12-09T16:13:52Z")
Another thing to consider with regards to the supply of workers is that at the time Egyptian farmers had more down time than you’d think. Agriculture was determined by the state of the Nile; it flooded at predictable times, and the flooding irrigated massive amounts of farmland that could then be used to yield incredible amounts of food; Egyptian crops didn’t need a lot of help and provided a lot of downtime to do other things, be it other types of agriculture or… well, building things. A farmer could produce more than enough wheat by April and then earn extra dough building someone’s pyramid. The abundance the Nile provided is one of the reasons Egypt was ABLE to be one of the earliest great civilizations and build giant pyramids at a time most people in the world were building houses out of poop and starving to death. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/66 "2014-12-09T16:24:42Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Another thing to consider with regards to the supply of workers is that at the time Egyptian farmers had more down time than you’d think. Agriculture was determined by the state of the Nile; it flooded at predictable times, and the flooding irrigated massive amounts of farmland that could then be used to yield incredible amounts of food; Egyptian crops didn’t need a lot of help and provided a lot of downtime to do other things, be it other types of agriculture or… well, building things. A farmer could produce more than enough wheat by April and then earn extra dough building someone’s pyramid. > > The abundance the Nile provided is one of the reasons Egypt was ABLE to be one of the earliest great civilizations and build giant pyramids at a time most people in the world were building houses out of poop and starving to death. Corvée labour gained a really bad rep in Europe for unfairness and oppression, mainly because it was typically used in direct competition with a peasant farmer’s own labour needs - essentially, the lord of the manor would force his peasants to pay their labour tax by working in HIS fields at the exact same time that the peasants needed to work THEIR fields to grow food for themselves. As you note, in Egypt the cycle of the argicultural year followed the flooding of the Nile, meaning that paying one’s compulsory labour tax in the “off season” wasn’t in direct competition with the peasant’s own essential needs. Though the notion that they therefore were delighted to do it because of the free beer and the honour of it all strikes me as something to take with a grain of salt ("well, I COULD just do stuff around the house … or I COULD travel hundreds of miles away to haul stones for a couple of months … " 😉 ). ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/67 "2014-12-09T18:08:27Z")
It’s easy to imagine there were some of both types of laborers. Established family men who would have preferred staying at home and fixing up the house, adventurous young men who welcomed a chance to interact with people from all across the kingdom, jaded husbands who appreciated an excuse to get away from thier wives, lazy sots who would prefer ANYthing over hauling giant rocks… But physical labor, working as a team, with decent hours, decent food, decent quarters, social respect – probably there were lots of people who were okay with that. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/68 "2014-12-09T18:17:43Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > As you note, in Egypt the cycle of the argicultural year followed the flooding of the Nile, meaning that paying one’s compulsory labour tax in the “off season” wasn’t in direct competition with the peasant’s own essential needs. > > Though the notion that they therefore were delighted to do it because of the free beer and the honour of it all strikes me as something to take with a grain of salt ("well, I COULD just do stuff around the house … or I COULD travel hundreds of miles away to haul stones for a couple of months … " 😉 ). Yeah, given that adult male Egyptians lived distressing short and awful lives anyway - making it to 40 was considered cause to celebrate - any leisure time at all you would think would have been hoarded like gold. Ancient Egypt was one of those societies where it wasn’t just staggering infant mortality that kept down average lifespans. The Egyptian peasantry worked until they dropped ( laborer skeletons from that period are beaten all to hell ) and unfortunately for them while the Nile’s tremendous bounty supported a large population ( all the better for labor-intensive work projects ), ironically a monotonous grain diet with minimal meat or greens made for chronic malnutrition. Unless one can make the argument that unceasing back-breaking work hauling stone blocks on pulleys for free beer was a nice break from unceasing back-breaking agricultural work ( and maybe someone _can_ ), the notion of happy conscripts/volunteers is probably an oxymoron. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/69 "2014-12-09T18:42:05Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > …Unless one can make the argument that unceasing back-breaking work hauling stone blocks on pulleys for free beer was a nice break from unceasing back-breaking agricultural work ( and maybe someone _can_ ), the notion of happy conscripts/volunteers is probably an oxymoron. If they got some vegetables and scraps of meat with that beer, it might well have been. Agricultural work sucks. Lots of bending over and other backbreaking, uncomfortable labor. Hauling stones may well have seemed like an okay option. Except that I’m pretty sure the stone-hauling happened when the crops didn’t need attention, so no, it wasn’t a break, it was something they did instead of taking a break, I expect. Still, if they had good food, it might have been a welcome diversion for many. Especially given the inadequate diet of the population. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/70 "2014-12-09T18:50:52Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > It’s easy to imagine there were some of both types of laborers. Established family men who would have preferred staying at home and fixing up the house, adventurous young men who welcomed a chance to interact with people from all across the kingdom, jaded husbands who appreciated an excuse to get away from thier wives, lazy sots who would prefer ANYthing over hauling giant rocks… > > But physical labor, working as a team, with decent hours, decent food, decent quarters, social respect – probably there were lots of people who were okay with that. I can see the ads now: > [@](#): > > Tired of kicking around the home village? Want a chance for travel, adventure, meeting new people and seeing amazing sights? > > Have all this and more - free beer, all the food you can eat, and even a state of the art healthcare plan - just join up today! > > You will enjoy healthy physical exercise with organized events\* held in the open air, right by the majestic Nile - and maybe even “rub shoulders” with Royalty! All expenses paid - just show up! Space is limited! > > \*Warning: “Organized Events” may include hauling gigantic stone blocks. Meeting with actual royalty not guaranteed. Healthcare plan includes burial expenses, but not funerary offerings. Space is limited to numbers of workers that can be fed. Beer subject to reasonable limits. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/71 "2014-12-10T01:49:15Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > What bothers me is when people say there are no stupid questions. There are no stupid questions. Inquisitive idiots, however, abound. ---
**Author:** ![Anthony\_Smith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d9b06d/32.png) [@Anthony\_Smith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anthony_Smith)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/72 "2014-12-12T20:12:58Z")
They figured it. They simply used counter weights and ramps that are internally built into the pyramid. Now a better question is how did they get built all around the world between non communicating groups of peoples? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/73 "2014-12-12T20:24:31Z")
> [@Anthony\_Smith](#): > > Now a better question is how did they get built all around the world between non communicating groups of peoples? 😕 Why is that a better question? Pyramidal shapes are the easiest and most stable way to build large structures without modern construction techniques. Ask any toddler. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/74 "2014-12-12T20:35:26Z")
Everyone is correct. The pyramids were built by using ramps, log rollers and manual labor. But the labor was actually **ALIENS!!!111** ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/75 "2014-12-12T20:35:55Z")
> [@Anthony\_Smith](#): > > They figured it. > They simply used counter weights and ramps that are internally built into the pyramid. > Now a better question is how did they get built all around the world between non communicating groups of peoples? For what I’ve read, pyramids, or their ancestor, the mastabas, are the simplest shape possible for building a large, durable structure. Basically you can use the layer you are standing on as scaffolding for the one you are working on. A rectangle the size of a pyramid, without modern engineering and building material would have been insanely hard to pull off. You could even say that if the pyramids were box-shaped, then that would be clear evidence for alien involvement. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/76 "2014-12-12T20:48:41Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > If they got some vegetables and scraps of meat with that beer, it might well have been. Thing is, if you’re a farmer, surely you can think of easier ways to get vegetables and meat than by involving a middle-man. Where did the meat/veg that the Pharaoh used to pay workers come from in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/77 "2014-12-15T06:01:06Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I disagree with the conscription angle as it implies a certain unwillingness or forced labor, which I don’t think was the case. Maybe I’m misremembering (or maybe this is a piece of History Channel fluff I picked up :p), but from what I recall actually people vied with each other to work on these projects. They were kind of cushy jobs (compared to the labor they would have had to do every day anyway) OK, so let’s say that you’re part of a group that’s due for conscription. If you wait for Lady Luck, you may get a cushy job or a bad one, an interesting job or one where your biggest problems are boredom and not being allowed to scratch your nose. If you volunteer and are accepted, the job is longer but you pick it. Would you volunteer? I just described the situation re. volunteer vs. conscript soldiers in Spain during the 100+ years our low-level ranks were conscripted. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/78 "2015-01-04T20:47:28Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > If I ever win the lottery, I’m thinking of building a Stonehenge-like structure. Not to actually use it, but just to mess with people who look at it in a few thousand years. Already been done: > **[Maryhill Stonehenge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryhill_Stonehenge)** > > The Maryhill Stonehenge is a replica of England's Stonehenge located in Maryhill, Washington, United States. It was commissioned in the early 20th century by the wealthy entrepreneur Sam Hill, and dedicated on July 4, 1918 as a memorial to the people who had died in World War I. > The memorial is constructed of concrete, and construction was commenced in 1918 and completed in 1929. It was listed on the National Register of Historic Places in 2021. > The Maryhill Stonehenge was the first monument... ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/79 "2015-01-04T21:34:11Z")
And done one better: [Carhenge - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carhenge) ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/80 "2015-01-05T01:09:13Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > There does seem to be a certain element of racism or culture-ism (I can’t think of the right word) involved. Somehow it’s always brown people like the Egyptians who needed alien help to build their ancient monuments; no one seems to think that the Greeks or Romans needed alien help to build the Parthenon or the Colosseum. Not really. The difference is the historical period, not the race of the builders. The Parthenon was built about 2,000 years after the Great Pyramid, and the Colosseum about 500 years later still. By that time, the Romans and Greeks knew about things like pulleys and wheels that the Egyptians didn’t have. It is a perfectly genuine mystery how the Egyptians did it. It’s well known how the Romans and Greeks did it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559.md?page=5)