# How were the pyramids in Egypt built? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 7, 2014, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559 "2014-12-07T10:40:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 46
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/902 "2015-04-28T16:57:50Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > Models are truly irrelevant with such simple physics. A caveman could literally do it if he had the tools. As a generalist models are superfluous at best. This is complete nonsense, Houdin demonstrated that they are not superflous already, and so are many before and after that are planing and created architecture and technology. > [@cladking](#): > > I did build a couple extremely simple models but not for me but to demonstrate the feasibility for others. Anyone can make a model of such a simple process if they don’t believe it will work. Spray water up onto a platform through a hole and see what you can lift. Cite for those models, or in other words, you need to show your work. > [@cladking](#): > > As a generalist, if I can’t picture something in my mind then I can’t understand it. If I can picture it, it will work. Models are irrelevant. No, that is magical thinking, not science and a complete misunderstanding of the uses of models. They also help many other people to prepare for issues or to point at problems. And that is why I really doubt that you demonstrated any feasibility to others. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/903 "2015-04-28T17:06:29Z")
As for generalists, do you realize that you are talking to many over here and that they also have knowledge in many fields? You also should know already that [James Burke](http://creativegeneralist.com/2007/05/the-knowledge-web/) (one of the biggest generalist egg heads around) is my model. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/904 "2015-04-28T17:09:04Z")
And the “they musta” bit? Stale beyond belief by now. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/905 "2015-04-28T17:14:06Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > They can present no evidence for their belief in ramps other than things I’ve shown support my theory but I can show how all the evidence, shallow as it is, works for my theory. Why doesn’t predictive capability mean anything? How much longer do ramps need to fail before they are jettisoned? If you’ll recall, I’ve already pointed out to you the fact of pictures existing depicting the use of ramps. I’m not sure why they need to be jettisoned in light of that fact. ---
**Author:** ![yoyodyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a9a28c/32.png) [@yoyodyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yoyodyne)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/906 "2015-04-28T17:45:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And the “they musta” bit? Stale beyond belief by now. That is something a stinky-footed bumpkin would say. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/907 "2015-04-28T17:49:38Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > Out of context this is hard to see. The meaning of ancient language was the context. > > They desire that the king’s body does not decay and that it becomes transmogrified (what Egyptologists call Akhified) into the geyser which “lives” eternally and that his ka becomes the pyramid which will last a million years where it communes with his soul (ba) in heaven. To accomplish this the body is cremated and he is freed from his bandages. > > Men must not walk in the efflux which comes forth from the water. This efflux is CO2 which collects in low lying areas and will kill the unwary. If you inadvertanly find yourself in such a place you should hurry out and walk on your tiptoes because just a few inches often makes the difference between life and death. Wow. I have so many points to raise. 1. Believing the king can transmogrify into a geyser is a superstitious belief, as is believing that the king has a soul which will live in heaven with the gods. As is the slaughtering of cows for the king at 716c. So there goes your theory that the Ancient Egyptians lived before superstitions existed. 2. If “Orisis” is the geyser, how does Osiris have a son (Horus), and specifically a son who made him a garment and wears a crown of horns? That makes sense if Osiris is a god…doesn’t make sense of if Osiris is a natural phenomenon. 1. To say: This is a sound garment which Horus has made for his father, Osiris. 1. How is a text in the interior of a pyramid and addressed to the king specifically a general warning to the lay people about CO2? Nothing else in the text is about health and safety, it’s all about the king’s fate in the afterlife and how he’ll be remembered. The context doesn’t support your interpretation. 2. Why is there no mention of geysers in the long, and otherwise richly detailed text? 3. Why would they mummify bodies, only to cremate them? Mummification makes sense if they placed a high value on bodies not rotting, as the text would indicate. It doesn’t make sense as a prelude to cremation. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/908 "2015-04-28T17:51:15Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > Take it up with the ancient Egyptians. They made ropes out of many different fibers and according to modern analysis the most common was halfa grass. Those found at Giza are halfa grass. > > Creating 5" diameter slings should have beenb easy enough for them and tarring them should be easy enough. There are 4" diameter ropes actually surviving. Wave that hand all you want. You’re still not succeeding on the most basic premises of your hypothesized mechanism. Until you demonstrate the viability of a halfa rope 30m long and 13cm wide, that is capable consistently and reliably of hauling the kind of weights we’re talking about–both stone and water!–without breaking, your imaginary engineering project is doomed from step one. Sorry, man. . ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/909 "2015-04-28T18:44:53Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Wave that hand all you want. You’re still not succeeding on the most basic premises of your hypothesized mechanism. > > Until you demonstrate the viability of a halfa rope 30m long and 13cm wide, that is capable consistently and reliably of hauling the kind of weights we’re talking about–both stone and water!–without breaking, your imaginary engineering project is doomed from step one. Sorry, man. > . I can quote all the tables I want and the Handbook of Chemistry and Physics but some will maintain that until I build a pyramid it means nothing. You know Dr Lehner tried this to prove ramps and he believes he did. Closer examination of the “experiment” and proper analysis of the results proves he did not. People simply don’t seem tounderstand the simple concept that lifting weight requires a lot of work and that a one tenth scale model of a pyramid requires a tiny fraction of the work as a full scale model. People today don’t even notice as their engines strain as they drive up gentle slopes. They don’t know that this is where they usually burn up most of their gas. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/910 "2015-04-28T18:50:33Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > I can quote all the tables I want and the Handbook of Chemistry and Physics but some will maintain that until I build a pyramid it means nothing. > > You know Dr Lehner tried this to prove ramps and he believes he did. Closer examination of the “experiment” and proper analysis of the results proves he did not. People simply don’t seem tounderstand the simple concept that lifting weight requires a lot of work and that a one tenth scale model of a pyramid requires a tiny fraction of the work as a full scale model. > > People today don’t even notice as their engines strain as they drive up gentle slopes. They don’t know that this is where they usually burn up most of their gas. What’s all this handwaving got to do with making a simple rope out of halfa grass? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/911 "2015-04-28T19:05:40Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > People simply don’t seem tounderstand the simple concept that lifting weight requires a lot of work and that a one tenth scale model of a pyramid requires a tiny fraction of the work as a full scale model. But we all agree that it’s a heck of a lot better than just throwing out unsupported hypothesis on a message board, right? I mean, at least that provides a point of discussion, where as words on a page don’t really demonstrate anything. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/912 "2015-04-28T19:15:13Z")
_IF_ **cladking** actually went through the long and arduous process of turning halfa grass into rope, he would end up with something like [this](http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the-collection-online/search/475030). Because halfa grass is so short, there is a definite limit as to how thick and how long a rope can be made from it. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/913 "2015-04-28T19:17:46Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Wow. I have so many points to raise. > > 1. Believing the king can transmogrify into a geyser is a superstitious belief, as is believing that the king has a soul which will live in heaven with the gods. As is the slaughtering of cows for the king at 716c. So there goes your theory that the Ancient Egyptians lived before superstitions existed. You’d think so wouldn’t you. But, no, they could separate their “beliefs” from their anthropomorphization of nature. They didn’t believe the king literally lived forever but that as long as he was remembered he lived in a sense. These folks were very ritualistic; far more than we are today, I believe. Death rights are naturally caught up in ritual and mourning. When there’s nothing left of his corporeal being the geyser that made his ka still exists and his ba still circulates in heaven as the smoke of incense. The average man didn’t really think the king lived but took comfort in the idea he wasn’t truly gone like an idea that comes and goes. > [@](#): > > 1. If “Orisis” is the geyser, how does Osiris have a son (Horus), and specifically a son who made him a garment and wears a crown of horns? That makes sense if Osiris is a god…doesn’t make sense of if Osiris is a natural phenomenon. The PT is very definite about the nature of horus. First off you must understand there were two horuses that were identical in concept. Horus the elder was the god of the land of rainbows and his father was atum when he was born at zep tepi from between the thighs of the ennead. He emerged from nothingness at the first eruption though he wasn’t a direct off spring of atum like “upward” and “downward”. He simply came to be as the eruptions continued yet he could trace his lineage right to atum himself. Horus the younger was the stone that was quarried in the land of horus so was very much the same thing. Horus was given birth when isis pulled him out of the quarry with atum (osiris) (the water) providing the impetus. > [@](#): > > 1. How is a text in the interior of a pyramid and addressed to the king specifically a general warning to the lay people about CO2? Nothing else in the text is about health and safety, it’s all about the king’s fate in the afterlife and how he’ll be remembered. The context doesn’t support your interpretation. Actually there are several things about health and safety. One is a sort of pep talk for the sculptors who cut the stone which advises them to be diligent and careful. Most mentions of khnum are related to this. > [@](#): > > 1. Why is there no mention of geysers in the long, and otherwise richly detailed text? There is almost nothing but mentions of geysers. Atum/ osiris is the natural phenomenon of the geyser and “d3.t” means geyser. Atum is the cool effervescent column of water that tosses violently on the Giza Plateau. > [@](#): > > 1. Why would they mummify bodies, only to cremate them? Mummification makes sense if they placed a high value on bodies not rotting, as the text would indicate. It doesn’t make sense as a prelude to cremation. I don’t know. I suppose a dried body would burn with far less fuel than an undried one. A larger fraction of the smoke generated would be from the corpse rather than the fuel. My best guess is that there was too long a period between the regicide and his ascension and it was to preserve the body for the ritials. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/914 "2015-04-28T19:19:53Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > When there’s nothing left of his corporeal being the geyser that made his ka still exists and his ba still circulates in heaven as the smoke of incense. This is superstition. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/915 "2015-04-28T19:20:11Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > But we all agree that it’s a heck of a lot better than just throwing out unsupported hypothesis on a message board, right? I mean, at least that provides a point of discussion, where as words on a page don’t really demonstrate anything. I disagree. All progress and all invention in modern and ancient science has always been the result of an idea and only individuals can have ideas or think. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/916 "2015-04-28T19:23:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What’s all this handwaving got to do with making a simple rope out of halfa grass? Just like the parallel lines that can’t be seen there is halfa grass rope from the Great Pyramid. It seems even waving my arms can’t get people to see vertical lines and ideas that don’t fit their beliefs. Reality always exists even without experiment to confirm it or words to name it. We can only catch glimpses of it from time to time. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/917 "2015-04-28T19:26:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And the “they musta” bit? Stale beyond belief by now. If you think it’s stale to hear me say it you can’t imagine how tired I’ve grown of hearing Egyptologists say it. They’ve sung this song so long it’s burned in their brain but it rubs my last two brain cells the wrong way. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/918 "2015-04-28T19:28:19Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > Just like the parallel lines that can’t be seen there is halfa grass rope from the Great Pyramid. It seems even waving my arms can’t get people to see vertical lines and ideas that don’t fit their beliefs. Reality always exists even without experiment to confirm it or words to name it. We can only catch glimpses of it from time to time. I’m not convinced that you’ve caught a glimpse of it. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/919 "2015-04-28T19:28:49Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > If you’ll recall, I’ve already pointed out to you the fact of pictures existing depicting the use of ramps. I’m not sure why they need to be jettisoned in light of that fact. I haven’;t really ruled out ramps altogether. I believe there’s about a 2% chance ramps were actually used. I believe there is about a .1% chance you’ll find authentic pictures. I might reconsider these odds when you claim to have them in hand. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/920 "2015-04-28T19:32:57Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > As for generalists, do you realize that you are talking to many over here and that they also have knowledge in many fields? You also should know already that [James Burke](http://creativegeneralist.com/2007/05/the-knowledge-web/) (one of the biggest generalist egg heads around) is my model. Sure. I can usually tell a generalist from a specialist pretty fast. I believe my type of generalism is a little different but my perspective is far different than most generalists because my focus is metaphysics and epistemology from this perspective. Most generalists actually have more knowledge than most people but I have less. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/921 "2015-04-28T19:33:40Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > I can quote all the tables I want and the Handbook of Chemistry and Physics but some will maintain that until I build a pyramid it means nothing. > > You know Dr Lehner tried this to prove ramps and he believes he did. Closer examination of the “experiment” and proper analysis of the results proves he did not. People simply don’t seem tounderstand the simple concept that lifting weight requires a lot of work and that a one tenth scale model of a pyramid requires a tiny fraction of the work as a full scale model. > > People today don’t even notice as their engines strain as they drive up gentle slopes. They don’t know that this is where they usually burn up most of their gas. An of course this shows to me why you are so reticent to look at physical computer models, as the team that worked with Houdin showed, the models nowadays can replicate the loads of tons of material. (Almost as an afterthought they showed what was the source and direction of the pressures that were the most likely reason for the cracks that are seen in the big stones over the main chamber in the great pyramid). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559.md?page=45) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559.md?page=47)