# How were the pyramids in Egypt built? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 7, 2014, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559 "2014-12-07T10:40:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 57
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1122 "2015-05-02T00:28:16Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > Yes. And these drawings all agree with my theory. They depict osiris in a djed because osoiris stood inside a djed to make him stable and enduring. > > Is this thing on? [Zoidberg]Yes, and Your Ideas Are Bad.[/Zoidberg] > **[YOUR IDEAS ARE BAD AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD](http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3p66b1)** > > Click to Enlarge... write a comment or recaption! ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1123 "2015-05-02T00:29:14Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > You know if I were making this stuff up then why isn’t Egyptology calling me on it? > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Good question, sorta, I guess. My first inclination is to suppose that you’re not important enough for an expert to bother with. You’re getting your ass handed to you by a bunch of laymen in _this thread_. Why would serious academics spend time and journal space “calling” somebody who demonstrates neither the capacity nor the inclination to engage in real scholarship? > > Cranks is cranks. You’re not even a well-known enough crank to merit more than a name-check on rationalwiki. > [@tomndebb](#): > > Because it would be a waste of their time to call attention to you. > > There are hundreds of nutcases wandering around promoting Creationism. Most are ignored by the scientific community. Only those who actually get a sufficient audience (and collect enough money) that they threaten to corrupt schools by inserting their crackpot claims into texts and classrooms get addressed by genuine scientists. > > Why should any genuine historian or anthropologist bother to spend time “refuting” the claims of one more lonely voice (among hundreds) with odd ideas posted on the internet? > [@cladking](#): > > My guess is that the primary reason goes far beyond how offended they are… > [@tomndebb](#): > > They are not offended… That is part and parcel of your imaginary story that you tell yourself (and repeat on message boards). You are just one of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people with imaginary beliefs about Ancient Egypt. They are no more concerned about your opinions than I am concerned about the latest 14-year-old who has just discovered Justin Bieber and thinks that he is a superior musical artist to Pavoratti. I might smile indulgently at his fantasy, but I am not going to invest any energy trying to change his mind. Years ago, my son decided that Blink 182 was better than every band from the 1960s. I made no effort to change his opinion, letting him grow up to recognize his own errors. > > The Egyptologists that you imagine yourself offending do not regard your quaint beliefs to be worth their time to be offended. > [@cladking](#): > > Is this thing on? Dude, welcome to my world… ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1124 "2015-05-02T00:38:01Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > Be specific. What did I get wrong? Scroll. Up. Numerous people have pointed out numerous things wrong with, well, just about everything you’ve put forth. If you want further references, look at that thread you participated in that I linked to earlier…since .folks in that thread were pointing out the same things…to you…over and over again. And they basically bounced right off of your impervious armor of certainty. You’ve provided zero evidence that any of your theories have been true. You constantly resort to strawmen wrt ‘Egyptologists’. As far as I can tell you’ve convinced almost no one that even PART of your ramblings are worth even investigation. All you do is spout mumbo jumbo and woo filled mysticism or vague theories based on your gut and your translations, while you’ve proved repeatedly that you don’t even know the basics of this stuff. You are evasive, saying something them backpedaling when called on stuff (example…you stated that the Great Pyramids were the first pyramids, then handwaved that away when you were called on it). You’ve managed to hijack and waste over 40 pages on TWO FREAKING MESSAGE BOARDS OVER YOUR CRAZY CRAP. And you are completely immune to logic, reason or debate. Personally, I’m just enjoying watching your antics and footwork, as well as being cooled by the massive amount of handwavage you are doing…though the amount of smoke you blow is getting to choking levels. I never liked sharks, personally, but I’m starting to think of all the sharks jumped by you in this (and the other…and probably many others that I shudder to think about) thread and am thinking that PETA might need to be called in at some point. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1125 "2015-05-02T00:47:59Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > What logic is there to say “god” is an imaginary consciousness in the PT if no two people agree on the nature of the god? So you agree it is important for two or more people to agree on an interpretation of the ancient texts? ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1126 "2015-05-02T01:16:22Z")
> [@XT](#): > > You are evasive, saying something them backpedaling when called on stuff (example…you stated that the Great Pyramids were the first pyramids, then handwaved that away when you were called on it). So you can’t be specific and can’t tell me where I said G1 was the first great pyramid. I’m wrong and you know it because your guts tell you that if everyone disagrees with me then I can’t be right. Sounds like a good “refwootation” to me. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1127 "2015-05-02T01:16:53Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > My guess is that the primary reason goes far beyond how offended they are when I say there was no ancient religion and no belief in magic. I think the primary reason is they have enough expertise to clearly see my interpretations more closely match the facts than their own. By trying to refute a superior explanation they would call attention to it. They need this time to find evidence for ramps and not defend their ideas against the very person who took away their favorite weapon. They do not care about you at all! Not in the least. You have been totally ignored. All of your efforts have had absolutely no impact, as if you had not bothered at all. The ancient aliens guy convinced more people than you have. You make ramps seem practical in comparison to your fantasy seltzer elevator. You would do your own cause the most good by never speaking of it again. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1128 "2015-05-02T01:17:39Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > Be specific. What did I get wrong? Well, there’s this: > [@cladking](#): > > I have never stated the Giza pyramids are the first great pyramids and don’t know what I’ve said to make you believe that. > [@cladking](#): > > One of the big weaknesses in believing in ramps is that the first pyramis was a great pyramid. They didn’t warm upon 100’ pyramids anbd went straight to a 200’ > one. And this, talking of the Old Egyptian that your Pyramid Texts are written in: > [@cladking](#): > > It’s the language that is distinct and unlike any modern language. [QUOTE=Wikipedia] Egyptian is a fairly typical Afroasiatic language. At the heart of Egyptian vocabulary is a root of three consonants. Sometimes there were only two, for example rꜥ [riːʕa] “sun” (where the [ʕ] is thought to have been something like a voiced pharyngeal fricative), but larger roots are also common, some being as large as five: sḫdḫd “be upside-down”. Vowels and other consonants were then inserted into the consonantal skeleton in order to derive different meanings, in the same way as Arabic, Hebrew, and other Afroasiatic languages do today. However, because vowels (and sometimes glides) were not written in any Egyptian script except Coptic, it can be difficult to reconstruct the actual forms of words; hence orthographic ⟨stp⟩ “to choose”, for example, could represent the stative (as the stative endings can be left unexpressed) or imperfective verb forms or even a verbal noun (i. e., “a choosing”). [/QUOTE] Then there’s this gem: > [@cladking](#): > > The Egyptians and or Sumerians invented the calender we use today. Nope. The Egyptians had a [calendar of 360 days, with five intercalary days added to the end of the year](http://www.polysyllabic.com/?q=calhistory/earlier/egyptian), so you _could_ say they had a 365-day calendar. But then, so did the [Sumerians](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_calendar) and the [Mayans](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haab%27) The calendar we use today, by the way, is the [Gregorian](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar), which dates to 1532. Then there’s _this_ whopper: > [@cladking](#): > > Modern science doesn’t really have any better explanation for how gravity works than the great pyramid builders. Um, no. We have a much better understanding of how gravity works than they did, thanks to [Isaac Newton](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_law_of_universal_gravitation) and [Albert Einstein](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_relativity). [QUOTE=Wikipedia] General relativity, also known as the general theory of relativity, is the geometric theory of gravitation published by Albert Einstein in 1915[1] and the current description of gravitation in modern physics. [/QUOTE] And who could forget _this_ classic claddyism: > [@cladking](#): > > Do you think I expected to find a natural language? I could never have invented such a thing. I found it. I extrapolated the implications. It explains why we can’t learn the simple animal languages, babies babel, the story of babel, and why we think the way we do. It explains why we talk past one another and why messages get distorted. It explains human history and why human history doesn’t extend all the way back to cavemen or even to the invention of writing. It explains countless things like how we arrive at answers in our sleep (or is this woo too). It explains our institutions and how man survived without modern science until we invented agriculture. Animals don’t have language, nor do babies, and the Tower of Babel is a story. There is no “natural language”. I really could go on, you know. (I’ve obviously edited **cladking** ’s posts to avoid wall o’ text.) ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1129 "2015-05-02T01:17:24Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So you agree it is important for two or more people to agree on an interpretation of the ancient texts? It’s important that two or more people agree with his interpretations, which all Egyptologists refuse to do! Why are they so afraid too back cladking’s completely made up conclusions?? ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1130 "2015-05-02T01:18:38Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So you agree it is important for two or more people to agree on an interpretation of the ancient texts? well, I’m more saying that if no two people agree on the meaning of an ancient word then there is absolutely no basis for saying any of them understand the word. If they don’t understand the words then how do we know they are right about ancient people being superstitious or never changing. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1131 "2015-05-02T01:23:19Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > So you can’t be specific and can’t tell me where I said G1 was the first great pyramid. I’m wrong and you know it because your guts tell you that if everyone disagrees with me then I can’t be right. > > Sounds like a good “refwootation” to me. Post 152. That you cite over and over and over again. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1132 "2015-05-02T01:36:22Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > So you can’t be specific and can’t tell me where I said G1 was the first great pyramid. I’m wrong and you know it because your guts tell you that if everyone disagrees with me then I can’t be right. > > Sounds like a good “refwootation” to me. Dude, seriously…you do realize that people can scroll up and look for themselves, right? I mean, we aren’t simply sitting here chatting where you can later say that the conversation was different than my version…it’s all up there. And folks can scroll up to see. IOW, I HAVE been specific and so have others wrt the assertions you’ve made. You’ve dodge direct questions, or off loaded a metric butt load of horseshit woo mysticism, or your old standby of strawmen (‘it’s got to be ramps!’) or assertion (‘ramps have been debunked!’). I know you are wrong on just about everything you’ve said in both threads. Pretty much everyone else does too. Everyone by you, who can’t seem to grasp that your arguments are unconvincing drivel. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1133 "2015-05-02T02:00:04Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > well, I’m more saying that if no two people agree on the meaning of an ancient word then there is absolutely no basis for saying any of them understand the word. If they don’t understand the words then how do we know they are right about ancient people being superstitious or never changing. So who are the other people who share your fanciful interpretation of the ancient texts? Has anyone, anywhere published anything that agrees with your geyser theory? If not, you must agree you have no more claim to the truth than the Egyptologists arguing over the nature of the gods. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1134 "2015-05-02T02:19:10Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Dude, seriously…you do realize that people can scroll up and look for themselves, right? To be fair to him, he didn’t actually say what you think he said. " _the first pyramis was a great pyramid. They didn’t warm upon 100’ pyramids anbd went straight to a 200’ one._ " That statement is correct as far as it goes. The [first pyramid](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_of_Djoser)was indeed about 200 ft high, and they didn’t practice with 100 ft pyramids first. He described it as _a great pyramid_, indefinite article, and lowercase. He didn’t actually say it was The Great Pyramid of Giza. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1135 "2015-05-02T02:21:31Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > If not, you must agree you have no more claim to the truth than the Egyptologists arguing over the nature of the gods. Certainly from many perspectives this is true. But first let me just say that I also have no less claim to the truth than any Egyptologist. Now let me state my perspective on this; Egyptologists get their estimation of the meaning of these words largely from their understanding as based on later peoples and later writing. Egyptologists are not stupid and they know everything wasn’t really static but they still can ONLY undersatand the later times becauyse the PT is incomprehensible. There’s no questionb what the book of the dead means and most Egyptologists and even laymen can just read it and have a good understanding. But this isn’t true for the PT so it is only understood in terms of this later writing. Egyptologists don’t even agree on the translation and it is completely overhauled evey few years. They certainly don’t understand the meaning. However I contend the meaning is right before our eyes and the builders meant exactly what they said. Each word was solved by context and the author intent is plausible as it literally “stated”. Osiris literally towed the earth by means of balance. While Egyptologists count the number of angel which can dance on the head of a pin, there is a coherent, sensible, and literal meaning to the PT. You shouldn’t trust my sayso but I don’t know why you won’t consider the sayso of the people who built the pyramids and wrote the Pyramid Texts. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1136 "2015-05-02T02:27:45Z")
Name one published researcher who agrees with your theory. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1137 "2015-05-02T02:31:45Z")
I’ve said many times that Egyptologists believe nothing ever changed and I should previously have clarified this statement. Obviuously Egyptologists see many changes over the centuries. Anyone can see they built ever larger great pyramids and then never built another one. There are obvious changes in many places and they aren’t blind to these. When I say one of their assumptions in “nothing ever changed” I mean they believe both the language and the religion merely “evolved”. You can see the same names of gods and you can see the magic. The words used in the culture don’t appear to have changed radically so no one ever considered the possibility that the language underwent a revolutionary change that’s nearly invisible beyond the fact the earlier incarnation is unintelligible. The vocabulary didn’t change but the language changed. The ancient language failed but the vocabulary survived. There was no ancient religion and it is a confusion of the ancient language. In order to understand the PT even to the very highly limited degrere that they do understand they have to interpret it in terms of later books. They have to assume words like “god” meant the same thing to the pyramid builders as it did to the authors of the book of the dead. They are assuming an ancient religion existed and the language underwent no revolutionary change. Since to a very large extent science, religion, and language define a culture they really are suggesting “nothing ever changed”. Of course no Egyptologist would ever say such a thing. But they’re still doing it. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1138 "2015-05-02T02:34:51Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > You shouldn’t trust my sayso but I don’t know why you won’t consider the sayso of the people who built the pyramids and wrote the Pyramid Texts. For a start, because we don’t find your claim to understand the texts to be at all plausible. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1139 "2015-05-02T02:53:02Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So who are the other people who share your fanciful interpretation of the ancient texts? Has anyone, anywhere published anything that agrees with your geyser theory? If not, you must agree you have no more claim to the truth than the Egyptologists arguing over the nature of the gods. I understate the support I get. There are a lot of people interested in my interpretations of the PT and they ask in posts, PM’s, and eMails. Most sites have a lot of lurkers and many sites I post on have a lot of people very interested in pyramids or Egyptians. There are also many interested in my opinion about many other things related to pyramids and especially engineering. There is a growing coalition of alternative theorists who may noyt support each other’s theories in allcases but do support the right of everyone to be heard (we aren’t nearly so adamant that the woo be heard)(I even support some of the woo being heard because some of it has aspects that are well thought out). People today just don’t realize that the most fantastic theories are coming from Egyptology. People figure that anything based on previous knowledge must be building ever closer to the truth but they don’t realize Egyptology is based on four assumptions that don’t hold water. People believe Egyptologists when they are told that ramps and tombs are the cultural context but what they aren’t told is that this “context” comes from a thousand years later. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1140 "2015-05-02T02:55:12Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > For a start, because we don’t find your claim to understand the texts to be at all plausible. I didn’t say osiris tows the earth by means of balance. I didn’t say the earth is made high under the sky by means of the arms of tefnut. The great pyramid builders said it. I’m just telling you they meant exactly what they said. There is no interpretation needed. Egyptologists are superfluous. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1141 "2015-05-02T02:58:39Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Name one published researcher who agrees with your theory. Irrelevant!!! An honest answer to the quesytion would smash toes so I’ll just say no one really agrees with me. Chris Jordan theorized geysers and Charles Ragano agrees stones were pulled up one step at a time. If people really started agreeing with me I might change my mind. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559.md?page=56) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559.md?page=58)