# How were the pyramids in Egypt built? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 7, 2014, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559 "2014-12-07T10:40:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 92
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1822 "2015-05-15T16:21:32Z")
[QUOTE=cladking] I doubt it. [/QUOTE] Yes, but you don’t seem to know much about actual work being done. Even in the current unstable environment SOME work is still being done, and before the blow up there were several groups working not just on the Giza plateau but throughout Egypt. New techniques and technologies have been employed, such as satellite imaging that has lead to new discoveries and new areas of interest and sites for future excavation. > [@](#): > > Zahi Hawass climnbed out of the Osiris Shaft in 1996 and said “there are important clues how the pyramid was built down there”. I don’t think you’ll get much push back about Hawass…he’s definitely got issues, and he tries to control everything and make every discovery or revelation of new findings go through him and his office. He’s an empire builder with a complex. The flip side of that is that in the past Egypt was pushed aside by other countries and their archeologists who did what they wanted and took what they wanted, so he’s got reasons for the large chip he’s got on his shoulder. But even with him large and in charge discoveries have been made in the last 20 years…you just seem so focused on your strawman and your obsession with your theories that you’ve overlooked them. But there is not big conspiracy here, and ‘Egyptologists’ aren’t what you think they are. > [@](#): > > The Tomb of the Birds with its cave was sealed up even before the political problems began. As a lot of tombs throughout Egypt have been. But it was explored, even using tethered robotic explorers down some of the smaller passages. The reason things are closed off has nothing to do with halting exploration and more do to with control and preventing accidents and harm to the tombs. If you have a legitimate reason to do a new exploration and if you could get ZH and his department (and the Egyptian government now) to sign off on it you could do new explorations…though from what I’ve read of what was actually found and the issues with further exploration I doubt you’d get much more out of the Tomb of Birds than has already been found. There are other, more promising sites on the Giza plateau for future exploration from what I recall. This one seems more of a CT focus for the internet Egyptian mysteries crowd. > [@](#): > > They are still working in excavating here (principally at "KhentkawesTown about 2000’ south of G1) but theyt are looking for rampos and all the wrong things in all the wrong places. Houdin was given permission to do the infrared scan and then it was rescinded. They are afraid of the pyramid. Horseshit. They weren’t looking for any such things in the actual explorations of the Tomb of Birds. :rolleyes: You are just unbelievably fixated on this. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1823 "2015-05-15T16:24:12Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > I feel that’s a little unfair to **cladking**. Clearly, something about the Pyramids deeply impressed him and fired his imagination to the point that he’s spent a decade thinking about them. And for all the nonsense he’s spouted, he has never denied that they were built by human beings, using their minds and bodies. Re-read what I wrote…I’m not saying he claimed it was aliens. I said he cheapens the accomplishment by his theories of magical machines that did the work, instead of focusing on the reality of the accomplishment that the Egyptians did all of that with the tools and technology and ingenuity that they ACTUALLY had at the time, instead of ridiculous geysers and magic ropes and lifting machines where one peasant could sit under a tree sipping carbonated soft drinks and pulling a lever to raise the stones. It’s one step down from ‘aliens did it’, since it takes away from the actual human accomplishment…IMHO of course. YMMV and all of that. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1824 "2015-05-15T16:42:08Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > If he’d spent all that time actually studying the history and culture, which I very much doubt he did, instead of viscerally staring at the pyramid texts, he could have become an accomplished Egyptologist.😉 But then he’d have had to think of the pyramid-builders as stinky-footed bumpkins! I was just saying that **cladking** ’s woo seems to be based on a sincere awe at what the Egyptians did. It’s not as subtextually racist and condescending as the ancient aliens dude’s horseshit. As **XT** pointed out. I don’t think it cheapens the builders. It’s still woo, though. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1825 "2015-05-15T16:55:48Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > But you said no writing earlier than the PT survives, and the PT is from a century after the great pyramid…so how could the word be “attested”, if there’s no writing from the time period? Exactly! The word “ramp” isn’t even attested from the great pyramid building age. Either they didn’t use ramps, there is no “cultural context”, or both. Hence this means the Egyptological claim that only ramps fit the cultural context is necessarily wrong. The lack of attestation has little effect on my theory except that it is highly consistent since my theory doesn’t involve ramps per se. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1826 "2015-05-15T16:59:21Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Re-read what I wrote…I’m not saying he claimed it was aliens. I said he cheapens the accomplishment by his theories of magical machines that did the work, instead of focusing on the reality of the accomplishment that the Egyptians did all of that with the tools and technology and ingenuity that they ACTUALLY had at the time, instead of ridiculous geysers and magic ropes and lifting machines where one peasant could sit under a tree sipping carbonated soft drinks and pulling a lever to raise the stones. It’s one step down from ‘aliens did it’, since it takes away from the actual human accomplishment…IMHO of course. YMMV and all of that. I have to disagree. All work is good work but humans weren’t put on this planet to waste away their lives doing strenuous work that could have been done easily using their heads rather than their backs. We don’t carry girders up skyscrapers because we don’t need to. We don’t mix the cement for dams by hand because machines do it better and faster. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1827 "2015-05-15T17:02:02Z")
> [@XT](#): > > As a lot of tombs throughout Egypt have been. But it was explored, even using tethered robotic explorers down some of the smaller passages. The reason things are closed off has nothing to do with halting exploration and more do to with control and preventing accidents and harm to the tombs. If you have a legitimate reason to do a new exploration and if you could get ZH and his department (and the Egyptian government now) to sign off on it you could do new explorations…though from what I’ve read of what was actually found and the issues with further exploration I doubt you’d get much more out of the Tomb of Birds than has already been found. There are other, more promising sites on the Giza plateau for future exploration from what I recall. This one seems more of a CT focus for the internet Egyptian mysteries crowd. You’re thinking of some other cave. The Tomb of the Birds was unknown to Egyptology and to Hawass until he was led by the hand into it on international television in 2010. The cave was then quickly sealed up without being explored and people haven’t been in it since. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1828 "2015-05-15T17:05:40Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > Exactly! > > The word “ramp” isn’t even attested from the great pyramid building age. > > Either they didn’t use ramps, there is no “cultural context”, or both. > > Hence this means the Egyptological claim that only ramps fit the cultural context is necessarily wrong. The lack of attestation has little effect on my theory except that it is highly consistent since my theory doesn’t involve ramps per se. There is still no evidence of cold water geysers in Egypt. Regardless of your flights of fancy the PT do not talk about geysers either, and your huge eye of Horus water jug with Alka Selter does not work like you think; in reality it makes more sense that the PT does refer to the few natron pellets as an item to be used for purification rites that involve just one person not a deluge. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1829 "2015-05-15T17:07:13Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > You’re thinking of some other cave. The Tomb of the Birds was unknown to Egyptology and to Hawass until he was led by the hand into it on international television in 2010. The cave was then quickly sealed up without being explored and people haven’t been in it since. No…it was re-discovered. It was originally discovered, excavated and explored (from memory) in the early 19th century (something like 1820 by, IIRC, Henry Salt), but since it didn’t have any treasure (it was a bird cult tomb…so mostly mummified birds, again IIRC) it was abandoned and forgotten. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1830 "2015-05-15T17:08:27Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Re-read what I wrote…I’m not saying he claimed it was aliens. I said he cheapens the accomplishment by his theories of magical machines that did the work, instead of focusing on the reality of the accomplishment that the Egyptians did all of that with the tools and technology and ingenuity that they ACTUALLY had at the time, instead of ridiculous geysers and magic ropes and lifting machines where one peasant could sit under a tree sipping carbonated soft drinks and pulling a lever to raise the stones. It’s one step down from ‘aliens did it’, since it takes away from the actual human accomplishment…IMHO of course. YMMV and all of that. Of course. And my mileage doesn’t really vary that much from yours. Analyzing the subtext of pseudoscience is like taste-testing barnyard manure - you can probably distinguish the different flavors, but all you’re left with is a feeling of wasted effort and a foul taste in your mouth. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1831 "2015-05-15T17:09:25Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I don’t think you’ll get much push back about Hawass…he’s definitely got issues, and he tries to control everything and make every discovery or revelation of new findings go through him and his office. He’s an empire builder with a complex. The flip side of that is that in the past Egypt was pushed aside by other countries and their archeologists who did what they wanted and took what they wanted, so he’s got reasons for the large chip he’s got on his shoulder. But even with him large and in charge discoveries have been made in the last 20 years…you just seem so focused on your strawman and your obsession with your theories that you’ve overlooked them. But there is not big conspiracy here, and ‘Egyptologists’ aren’t what you think they are. I actually have some respect for Dr Hawass; perhaps more than many Egyptologists. I’m extremely sensitive to the concerns of modern day Egyptians to these monuments and their history and am also sensitive to the concerns of the ancient Egyptians. This is why I have respect for Hawass, he does care about these same things and he is very knowledgeable. He accomplished nummerous important projects and changed lots of minds when he was in charge. However, using the tools of modern science appropriately to learn about the ancient people and their beliefs was very low on his list of priorities. He oversaw an establishment that already assumed all the important questions were already answered. They are wrong. All the assumption are in error. It’s time to dust off the measurinbg equipment and see what’s actually there and stop looking for treasure. It’s time to stop destroying evidence because it has nothing to do with ramps. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1832 "2015-05-15T17:11:51Z")
> [@XT](#): > > No…it was re-discovered. It was originally discovered, excavated and explored (from memory) in the early 19th century (something like 1820 by, IIRC, Henry Salt), but since it didn’t have any treasure (it was a bird cult tomb…so mostly mummified birds, again IIRC) it was abandoned and forgotten. Yes this is at least mostly accurate. It was rediscovered by Collins in 2010 and Hawass said it didn’t exist. The point is the cave is nearly full of bat guano and has not been excavated. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1833 "2015-05-15T17:17:50Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > … in reality it makes more sense that the PT does refer to the few natron pellets as an item to be used for purification rites that involve just one person not a deluge. Sure. A few natron pellets even allowed dead gods to stand and be devine; 1024a. His name lives on account of natron-offerings and he is divine. 765b. in thy name of “He who is come from the cataract (now translated as “cool watery region”)”; take to thyself thy natron that thou mayest be divine. The top of the pyramid would get quite foul after a few days of abuse by workers when there was no fresh water flow. This is the “purification” referred to in the PT. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1834 "2015-05-15T17:17:56Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > Yes this is at least mostly accurate. > > It was rediscovered by Collins in 2010 and Hawass said it didn’t exist. Cite for Hawas claiming that? A **XT** showed you are relying to much on piramidiot sources that do not deserve any trust. > [@cladking](#): > > The point is the cave is nearly full of bat guano and has not been excavated. The reasons given by pramidiots out there is not reason enough to stop doing research where we are more likely to find good evidence. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1835 "2015-05-15T17:19:18Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > Yes this is at least mostly accurate. > > It was rediscovered by Collins in 2010 and Hawass said it didn’t exist. > > The point is the cave is nearly full of bat guano and has not been excavated. And this isn’t. Like I said, this is like the internet Conspiracy Theory focus for a lot of nuts. It WAS excavated in the early 19th century. It was re-explored. Hawass said some contradictory things about it, but it was not filled full of bat guano…there are freaking pictures from inside the thing, and robotic exploration was done of some of the tunnels. It was then closed back up…something that a LOT of tombs and caves are in Egypt (I’d say most are). It’s really not a huge mystery, but folks who want to see a CT see one in this. Same goes for a lot of things concerning the Sphinx. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1836 "2015-05-15T17:20:31Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > Sure. A few natron pellets even allowed dead gods to stand and be devine; > > 1024a. His name lives on account of natron-offerings and he is divine. > > 765b. in thy name of “He who is come from the cataract (now translated as “cool watery region”)”; take to thyself thy natron that thou mayest be divine. > > The top of the pyramid would get quite foul after a few days of abuse by workers when there was no fresh water flow. This is the “purification” referred to in the PT. Tap dancing around the conclusion that those few natron pellets were not enough to purify that deluge is very unconvincing. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1837 "2015-05-15T17:26:20Z")
> [@simster](#): > > oh, but you seee - by doing what he did - he became the only true egyptologist. I’m merely the first person to understand the ancient Egyptians and all ancient humans. This is all rediscovery and I’ve barely even started. This will transform science and everything we believe today. It will give us back our history and end our amnesia. It will lead to massive changes in language. I’m the first animal on the face of the earth to use two sciences. Some of the changes are highly predictable. The way it plays out is much less predictable. Events are never predictable but someday people might say we will have started rebuilding the tower of Babel. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1838 "2015-05-15T17:30:52Z")
> [@XT](#): > > And this isn’t. Like I said, this is like the internet Conspiracy Theory focus for a lot of nuts. It WAS excavated in the early 19th century. It was re-explored. Hawass said some contradictory things about it, but it was not filled full of bat guano…there are freaking pictures from inside the thing, and robotic exploration was done of some of the tunnels. It was then closed back up…something that a LOT of tombs and caves are in Egypt (I’d say most are). It’s really not a huge mystery, but folks who want to see a CT see one in this. Same goes for a lot of things concerning the Sphinx. No! The robotic exploration of caves occurred in the Osiris Shaft midway between G2 and the Sphinx. The Tomb of the Birds was sealed up and has never been excavated. It might not have even been full of guano whe Salt discovered it but it is now. Andrew Collins et al have said the stench is nearly overpowering. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1839 "2015-05-15T17:31:57Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Tap dancing around the conclusion that those few natron pellets were not enough to purify that deluge is very unconvincing. The natron forced the eruption and it was the eruption (the inundation that tosses) that purified. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1840 "2015-05-15T17:32:08Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > I’m merely the first person to understand the ancient Egyptians and all ancient humans. This is all rediscovery and I’ve barely even started. This will transform science and everything we believe today. It will give us back our history and end our amnesia. It will lead to massive changes in language. > > I’m the first animal on the face of the earth to use two sciences. > > Some of the changes are highly predictable. The way it plays out is much less predictable. Events are never predictable but someday people might say we will have started rebuilding the tower of Babel. See guys? He’s merely making the most profound scientific discoveries in thousands of years. No big deal. Just your common, everyday super-genius with once-in-a-millennium insight. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1841 "2015-05-15T17:33:10Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > i’m merely the first person to understand the ancient egyptians and all ancient humans. This is all rediscovery and i’ve barely even started. This will transform science and everything we believe today. It will give us back our history and end our amnesia. It will lead to massive changes in language. > > I’m the first animal on the face of the earth to use two sciences. > > Some of the changes are highly predictable. The way it plays out is much less predictable. Events are never predictable but someday people might say we will have started rebuilding the tower of babel. _Stand back! His head is about to explode!!_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559.md?page=91) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559.md?page=93)