# How were the pyramids in Egypt built? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 7, 2014, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559 "2014-12-07T10:40:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 93
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1842 "2015-05-15T17:34:39Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Cite for Hawas claiming that? > > A **XT** showed you are relying to much on piramidiot sources that do not deserve any trust. > The reasons given by pramidiots out there is not reason enough to stop doing research where we are more likely to find good evidence. “Pyramidiots” are the only people doing real research on the pyramids since 1986. Unless you return artefacts and believe the four assumptions you are not allowed to work anywhere near the pyramids. Most of my sources before 1986 are Egyptological. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1843 "2015-05-15T17:36:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > _Stand back! His head is about to explode!!_ I’ll be fine. I just want my perspective seen. It’s this mad idea that sincerity might at least convince someone I’m not an AI program. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1844 "2015-05-15T17:38:02Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > No! > > The robotic exploration of caves occurred in the Osiris Shaft midway between G2 and the Sphinx. > > The Tomb of the Birds was sealed up and has never been excavated. It might not have even been full of guano whe Salt discovered it but it is now. Andrew Collins et al have said the stench is nearly overpowering. A 2 second [Google](https://www.google.com/search?q=exploration+of+the+Tomb+of+Birds+on+the+Giza+plateau&biw=1680&bih=979&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=nC5WVfaAEMbusAXC6oCwBg&ved=0CB0QsAQ) search shows images and notes from the re-discovery and exploration in 2010. Good grief, have you never thought to actually look any of this stuff up? There are tons of additional articles, if you can slog through all the wide eyed woo links to find the real stuff. ETA: Found [this](http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/gizaunderground.htm) (kind of wooish, but has some info anyway): > [@](#): > > In August 2009, British author Andrew Collins and researcher Nigel Skinner-Simpson announced that they had made a fortuitous discovery on the Giza Plateau: The Rediscovery of the Tomb of Eagles. > > The cave system was first explored by Henry Salt (the British Consul General) and Giovanni Caviglia in 1817, who entered through a rock-cut tomb. However, the existence of these caves was subsequently forgotten. Colonel Howard Vyse, who conducted excavations on the Giza Plateau in 1837, wrote about the tomb in his 1840 book. The site turned out to contain several mummies of birds, which Vyse and engineer John Shae Perring apparently removed. > > Collins relocated the lost tomb in January 2007 in the company of his wife, Sue. They found little, other than further evidence of a local bird cult practised within this structure. When Salt’s memoirs were published in 2007, Collins and Skinner-Simpson realised that they contained a detailed account of the exploration of the catacombs. The explorers had apparently penetrated “several hundred yards” into this structure before coming upon a spacious chamber that connected with three others of equal size, from which went labyrinthine passages. Caviglia later pursued one of these passages for a distance of “300 feet further” before giving up, the two men being put off by the fact that they had not found anything of value—no gold, no treasure, the primary obsession of these early pyramid explorers. > > On 3 March 2008, Sue and Andy Collins, together with Nigel Skinner-Simpson, went back to the newly baptised Tomb of the Birds, having gained sponsorship from the Association for Research and Enlightenment (ARE) in Virginia Beach, Virginia, USA. After some searching, they found a small crack in the rock face that led into a huge natural cave chamber which connected with other cave compartments and a long cave passage. In short, the trio realised that their structure coincided with the caves discovered in 1817. At present, no-one knows the total extent of the caves. Were the caves to continue beyond the farthest point reached, they would most likely head off in the direction of the Second Pyramid (The Pyramid of Khafre), whose south-western corner is only 480 metres southwest from the entrance to the Tomb of the Birds. Figure this is what you are talking about wrt ZH: > [@](#): > > Zahi Hawass on the ‘Tomb of the Birds’: > > In a curious twist to this discovery, the now infamous Zahi Hawass, made several controversial public claims concerning the rediscovery of the cave system at the back of the Tomb of the Birds, all of which are on the public record. He first denied the existence of any natural cave system, following which he stated categorically that it had been previously ‘explored and reported by many scholars’, for which there is no record. He then proceeded to excavate the site himself for several months, and fitted a metal gate across the entrance. The results of his excavations have yet to be released to the public. > > ``` > 'When they [Salt and Cavaglia] explored it, they called it a catacomb because it contains some tunnels and corridors cut deep into the rock. Anyone who enters this tomb may feel they are in a maze corridor because of the multiple tunnels, and it seems more than its 35 meters long'...'There are other passageways cut into the rock from the main corridors, but these are short tunnels'... > > ``` > > …‘I can say that there is no underground cave complex at this site’… > > Retrieved from Zahi Hawass Personal Blog (Dec, 2012) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1845 "2015-05-15T17:38:19Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > I’m merely the first person to understand the ancient Egyptians and all ancient humans. This is all rediscovery and I’ve barely even started. This will transform science and everything we believe today. It will give us back our history and end our amnesia. It will lead to massive changes in language. The evidence so far shows that you will not be able to do that even. > [@cladking](#): > > I’m the first animal on the face of the earth to use two sciences. :rolleyes: Please, just in my case my trainings in social sciences, history, computer science and computer graphics, with plenty of experience in library science and academic office work. Many of the generalists in the SDMB beat me by having even more science degrees and experience. > [@cladking](#): > > Some of the changes are highly predictable. The way it plays out is much less predictable. Events are never predictable but someday people might say we will have started rebuilding the tower of Babel. The tower of Babel can be explained by having the myth come from people that was living in exile and in the first big cities, that attracted trade from very far away, finding a lot of different languages and then a coincidental destruction of a city that usually happened during the many conquests of the day is enough to then get the myth going. > **[Tower of Babel](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel)** > > The story of the construction of the Tower of Babel (found in Genesis 11:1 and following) allows some biblical literalists\[note 1\] > to give a pre-scientific explanation for the existence of multiple human languages. > [@](#): > > The Tower of Babel as an explanation for the origins of languages is considered absurd by everyone except biblical literalists. Some biblical scholars believe that the tower myth was based on the ziggurats[wp] found in Mesopotamia, as seen in artistic impressions of the tower. This is a plausible basis for the physical description of the tower, but modern linguistics has rendered supernatural explanations of linguistic diversity unnecessary, much as modern biology has eliminated the need for a supernatural explanation for the origin of species. In the absence of stronger evidence, there is no reason to believe that God’s wrath over the construction of one of these structures led to the creation of languages. > > Aronra in his topic presentation “The Evolution of Genesis” at North Texas University made a point that the biblical account is not true at all, but does contain a kernel of truth. The unfinished Tower of Babel still exists on the site of Babylon, the original city. Its construction was begun by Hammurabi in approximately 1750 B.C, for the God Marduk, and resumed under King Nebuchadnezzar II. However, it was never completed as the kingdom fell to Cyrus the Great. [2] ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1846 "2015-05-15T17:38:31Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > I’ll be fine. I just want my perspective seen. > > It’s this mad idea that sincerity might at least convince someone I’m not an AI program. Perhaps, but when the sincerity comes in the form of “I am making the most profound discoveries for humanity in thousands of years”, there are a few more things that we might start to think about you… ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1847 "2015-05-15T17:40:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > See guys? He’s merely making the most profound scientific discoveries in thousands of years. No big deal. Just your common, everyday super-genius with once-in-a-millennium insight. No!! No discoveries. I’m not even smart enough to have made discoveries using ancient science. :o But this is the biggest “rediscovery” in 4,000 years not 1,000. Calling this a rediscovery of biblical poroportions is an understatement of biblical proportions! ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1848 "2015-05-15T17:40:27Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > “Pyramidiots” are the only people doing real research on the pyramids since 1986. Unless you return artefacts and believe the four assumptions you are not allowed to work anywhere near the pyramids. > > Most of my sources before 1986 are Egyptological. 100% wrong as shown in the video linked from the National Geographic and many of the links made before. There has been plenty of research done since 1986. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1849 "2015-05-15T17:41:41Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > No!! No discoveries. I’m not even smart enough to have made discoveries using ancient science. :o > > But this is the biggest “rediscovery” in 4,000 years not 1,000. Calling this a rediscovery of biblical poroportions is an understatement of biblical proportions! Oh, well that changes everything. You’re just making the most profound “rediscovery” in thousands of years. That’s definitely, absolutely not delusions of grandeur. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1850 "2015-05-15T17:47:15Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The tower of Babel can be explained by having the myth come from people that was living in exile and in the first big cities, that attracted trade from very far away, finding a lot of different languages and then a coincidental destruction of a city that usually happened during the many conquests of the day is enough to then get the myth going. > > [Tower of Babel - RationalWiki](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel) Yes. Everything can be explained in other ways. We always have explained everything in other ways. I’m not saying we need a new way to explain things, I’m saying that there is a more accurate way to see almost everything. The language became confused at whatever babel was and modern languages were born. The ancient language ceased to exist and we are left with the confused languages that arose at “babel”. This is really all incidental to how the pyramids were built. They were built just as the PT and the physical evidence show; stones were pulled up the side one step at a time. This explains the actual evidence and ends the need to dig for ramps. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1851 "2015-05-15T17:54:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Oh, well that changes everything. You’re just making the most profound “rediscovery” in thousands of years. That’s definitely, absolutely not delusions of grandeur. Modern people have this absurd notion that ideas are a dime a dozen. We value only invention and discovery. You might think rediscovery is important but fromn the ancient perspective all rediscovery is just a dime a dozen. This rediscovery is still a landmark one since it will lead to so many more. The only thing of real value to humans are ideas. It’s ideas that lead to hypothesis and eventually to theory. WWithout ideas in experiment design there will be no theoretical progres and everythings comes to a halt and then stagnates and dies. “Invention” is usually incidental tohuman progress because once an idea is established the invention will follow from one person or another. Invention tends to have more aspects of being cheap than ideas. Rediscovery is another things that is cheap because if I didn’t find this someone else would have. I have no delusions. I just had the misfortune of being in the wrong place at the wrong time with the visceral knowledge to know current opinion is a crock. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1852 "2015-05-15T18:00:03Z")
Zahi Hawass on the ‘Tomb of the Birds’: In a curious twist to this discovery, the now infamous Zahi Hawass, made several controversial public claims concerning the rediscovery of the cave system at the back of the Tomb of the Birds, all of which are on the public record. He first denied the existence of any natural cave system, following which he stated categorically that it had been previously ‘explored and reported by many scholars’, for which there is no record. He then proceeded to excavate the site himself for several months, and fitted a metal gate across the entrance. The results of his excavations have yet to be released to the public. ‘When they [Salt and Cavaglia] explored it, they called it a catacomb because it contains some tunnels and corridors cut deep into the rock. Anyone who enters this tomb may feel they are in a maze corridor because of the multiple tunnels, and it seems more than its 35 meters long’…‘There are other passageways cut into the rock from the main corridors, but these are short tunnels’… …‘I can say that there is no underground cave complex at this site’… I have no knowledge that he worked this site at all. I have seen first hand accounts that there were tools left inside shortly after he appeared in the cave on international television but to my knowledge the use of these tools and the reason for their prtesense has never been established. It is certainly possible that this was an official or semi-official operation. I seriously doubt there has been any activity since the gate was installed. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1853 "2015-05-15T18:07:31Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > I have no delusions. You wouldn’t know if you did. There’s a possibility you have something. But you’ve failed to convince a single person here that this is anything more than crackpottery. If you have something, based on what you’ve posted, there’s no way for anyone else to see this. When folks suggest building a model to demonstrate that it’s possible, _that’s a good idea_ – why not just do that? ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1854 "2015-05-15T18:13:13Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > 100% wrong as shown in the video linked from the National Geographic and many of the links made before. There has been plenty of research done since 1986. Trying to prove existing beliefs is not “research”. Experiments are supposed to be repeatable but this doesn’t make every attempt to duplicate one “progress”. This goes many times over when there is no new data being acquired outside of the expectations of the researchers. Modeling ramps might be interesting or even necessary but it’s not research while the infrared signatures aren’t being gathered or studied. If you’re sure there is gold hidden in the pyramid and finding it will lead to vastly more tourism then you must look, but it’s not research. This is the common denominator of almost everything they’ve done at Giza since 1986; they are seeking to prove existing belief or improve access and numbers of tourists. It’s almost like it backfired. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1855 "2015-05-15T18:21:41Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > No matter which side you take, it always leads back to cladking being correct. It’s like a Mobius strip. > > He’s an Egyptopologist! Now that you mention it the ancients were a little like a mobius strip with their thinking and language on one side and their works and expressions on the other. They were inseparable and all part of the same thing. I’d be proud to be thought of as an “Egyptologist” but hardly qualify and I believe this term is headed for the ash heap of history. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1856 "2015-05-15T18:23:50Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > ‘20% of GDP’ is a hollow phrase in this system. They would have received their rations anyway, regardless if they were peasants, bureaucrats, priests, soldiers, masons, miners or whatever. Nature is a bear. If there were no crop and no produce nobody woul have had anything. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1857 "2015-05-15T18:34:02Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > Nature is a bear. If there were no crop and no produce nobody woul have had anything. Nature is a motorcycle. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1858 "2015-05-15T18:45:16Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > No!! No discoveries. I’m not even smart enough to have made discoveries using ancient science. :o > > But this is the biggest “rediscovery” in 4,000 years not 1,000. Calling this a rediscovery of biblical poroportions is an understatement of biblical proportions! > [@cladking](#): > > I’m merely the first person to understand the ancient Egyptians and all ancient humans. This is all rediscovery and I’ve barely even started. This will transform science and everything we believe today. It will give us back our history and end our amnesia. It will lead to massive changes in language. > > I’m the first animal on the face of the earth to use two sciences. > > Some of the changes are highly predictable. The way it plays out is much less predictable. Events are never predictable but someday people might say we will have started rebuilding the tower of Babel. _ **…hilarious…** _ ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1859 "2015-05-15T18:50:47Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The tower of Babel can be explained by having the myth come from people that was living in exile and in the first big cities, that attracted trade from very far away, finding a lot of different languages and then a coincidental destruction of a city that usually happened during the many conquests of the day is enough to then get the myth going. **Cladking** , perhaps inadvertantly, linked to an actual cite, in post 1687: > [@cladking](#): > > I’m not asking for a right to my own facts but a right to interpret the facts in a new way. The Sumerians had a tower of babel sytory as well you know; > > [I Studied Inscriptions from Before the Flood: Ancient Near Eastern, Literary ... - Google Books](https://books.google.com/books?id=g5MGVP6gAPkC&pg=PA278&lpg=PA278&dq=The+Babel+of+Tongues:+A+Sumerian+Version&source=bl&ots=Eur5JbwSRa&sig=UNXSO_JodLL2z9_IVFmrHujJbYA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=e5ihUcXeDLD0iwLQpoCQBA#v=onepage&q=The%20Babel%20of%20Tongues%3A%20A%20Sumerian%20Version&f=false). There was indeed a Sumerian origin to the biblical story. This story dates to the third period of Ur, after the Gutians were driven out of power. As i stated in my response, there’s a good chance that the basis of the Sumerian story is the remembrance that looong ago Sumerian was THE main language spoken over much of the known world. Which is southern Irak. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1860 "2015-05-15T19:20:49Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > Exactly! > > The word “ramp” isn’t even attested from the great pyramid building age. > > Either they didn’t use ramps, there is no “cultural context”, or both. > > Hence this means the Egyptological claim that only ramps fit the cultural context is necessarily wrong. The lack of attestation has little effect on my theory except that it is highly consistent since my theory doesn’t involve ramps per se. This “cultural context” thing refers to some beef between you and Egyptologists who may or may not exist, or be aware of you. It’s got nothing to do with what’s being discussed in this thread; no one has tried to rebut your claim with “cultural context”. Try responding to posts here, instead of reciting unsourced arguments you’ve had in the past with other people. I mean, what I am supposed to do with your post here? “Boy, you said it, those unknown people who cited ‘cultural context’ in some argument I haven’t read and know nothing about sure are wrong!” Anyway, there are a number of outstanding points you’ve failed to address or follow up on, so I’ll refrain from posting further until you slow down and get around to that with meaningful replies. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559/1861 "2015-05-15T19:31:56Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > Trying to prove existing beliefs is not “research”. Experiments are supposed to be repeatable but this doesn’t make every attempt to duplicate one “progress”. Not my problem that you are telling all about your ignorance, you did not see the video nor the links, the robot camera with a drill was the result of a previous investigation done in the pyramid. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559.md?page=92) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-the-pyramids-in-egypt-built/706559.md?page=94)