Again, no good evidence for that. More likely is that with the later pyramids the sides of the pyramids were used as the ramps with counterweights for the highest stones (and it would also explain why there are lines that are present going up in the middle of the pyramids.)
So, as XT pointed out, you still have a lot of work to do, just pondering and going for feelings is just doing science by armchair. Until then I will go for the experts that looked at the pyramids and give us the most likely explanations so far.
A therapist I used to see in Beirut, who’s obsessed with the pyramids, had his own theory that he posted on a website he created specially for that purpose. This is an excerpt:
Who is this we, Kemosabe? I mean, in addition to you? PLEASE provide SOME evidence, besides your gut feelings, that ANYBODY also believes what you claim. Or are you a singular genius, the voice of one crying in the wilderness? That could bring honor to the board and renew BPC’s faith in humanity, but the rest of us require more than your say-so. And your quote says nothing whatsoever about your wobbly lamp.
Which it was, as high-ranking officials could afford chachkies like it.
Oh, so there is a conspiracy to silence you, too? Your standing on the “sounds like a crackpot” charts just keeps going up.
“Mistake?” Dear boy, the aliens built in that dogleg to honor Anubis.
I did not say and do not believe there is conspiracy to silence me. I may be a small pain in their side because my objections to their methodology and conclusions are legitimate. This is part of the reason they’ve been changing their stories in the recent past like trying to back away from ramps and the builder’s village being for the builders.
What I said was that within weeks of posting the purpose of the object by the front door of the museum and suggesting ways it could be tested to be proven, it was removed from display. I can imagine countless reasons this fact exists without suggesting a conspiracy. I think it is odd but no more.
I could easily be dissuaded from seeking the answers. If they just provide the data to prove me wrong or do the testing that should have been done years ago I’d no longer have as much interest. Of course if proven right I’d redouble my efforts to discover the location of the entrance to seshat’s chamber of darkness where the Mafdet Lynx lives; the location of the “Book of Thot” probably under the NE corner of the Great Pyramid just like the PT says.
There are no “conspiracies” except a self imposed conspiracy of confusion engaged in by the entire human race. It had to be very hard for some people to give up the ancient science and language. I’d say it’s a shame they didn’t put more effort into preserving understanding of the ancient ways except, just maybe, the great pyramids are an attempt to do this. Maybe the collapse of the language was far more gradual than I imagine and it spread until even the official languages became modern language everywhere about the same time.
Like everything else, I don’t know. But I believe these answers are in reach of modern science but Egyptologists are living in the 19th century. They aren’t doing basic science like infrared imaging and microscopic forensics. They seal up caves they said don’t exist without excavating them from under tons of bat guano. They can’t even be bothered tro test the water or the ben ben in the Sphinx Temple. This is no conspiracy; they merely already know everything so there’s no need for data, facts, or physical evidence.
Again, documentary support for all of those outlandish claims, please.
Look, I’m not attacking you because you are not an established authority. Hell’s bells, the two guys who ran the study I linked to earlier on determining the probable grit used when drilling holes in stone are dentists. Amateurs make important discoveries in science all the time, as they have since long before there were professional scientists. I am just looking for some tiny bit or evidence that you aren’t talking through your hat, or your viscera. Throw us a bone by showing us you aren’t just making this all up.
I cited already the most recent interview of Jean-Pierre Houdin. He is going to use infrared imaging to look for more evidence to support his theory, incidentally it was thanks to a microgravimetry survey of the Great Pyramid in the late 1980s that yielded the image that has supported his theory thus far.
So, experts are not stuck in the 19th century, they are using the latest technology and you only showed here that you did not look at the cites one made early that showed that what you declared here was spectacularly wrong.
This is a good thread-but i wanted to ask about the famous 'bent" pyramid-this was a big mistake by the Egyptian engineers-the pyramid was starting to collapse (because the sides were canted at to steep an angle). This was fixed by lowering the angle of the sides from that point tot he top (giving the bent appearance). Did the builders leave any word about why the mistake was made? Were any ramps used on this pyramid/
It’s been well over a quarter century since the gravimetric scan was done. For most practical purposes real science yhasn’t been getting done since.
My undersatanding is that P Houdin had permission in hand to do the infrared but it was then rescinded. As with everything, I might be wrong.
The gravimetric scan does not support the internal ramp theory. If youlook again you’ll see almost every single line is parallel to the base. Ramps can not be parallel to the base by definitions.
There are no original records of any sort other than what I’ve already cited in the thread. Nothing has survived so there is no “cultural context” except what is derived from the assumption that nothing ever changed because the only “culture” that survives is the Pyramid Texts and it is not understood. They don’t even know the basics like the nature of the ankh, origin of the sceptres, or meaning of the eye of horus. It is all a construct based on assumptions which I’ve been showing to be wrong. Ramps are debunked, there’s no evidence the ancients believed in religion or magic, it’s illogical to assume the people never changed when the evidence that they did is everywhere, and that there is no direct evidence of any sort that the great pyramids were tombs.
No paradigm exists without all four of the assumptions.
What you are looking at is the top view, in essence it would be like a gamer telling us that a similar structure could not have another dimension, and then finding the nasty surprise that the enemy is tossing grenades from above.
In the following documentary the diagram is expanded to show that indeed what the gravimetric scan showed has another dimension, it was called a spiral structure, and that is not a parallel or single level structure.
So, once the pyramid is built, and you’re up to your [del]eyeballs[/del] peaks in sand so the tip of the pyramid is even with the surface, how do you remove the sand and keep it from coming back? Wait 1000 years for the prevailing winds to shift?
ralph, ol’ buddy, I’m more an engineer than an archaeologist these days (and not much of one of them, either), so I can’t answer with specifics. What I can say is that it was their first try at a smooth-sided pyramid, and they bumped up against the angle of repose/friction, or the maximum angle that granular material can be piled before it it starts sliding off. You can test it by slowly pouring dry sand into a pile. It will quickly stabilize into a pile with an angle of about 34 degrees from horizontal, or less. Do it again and you’ll get the same result because 34 degrees is the angle of repose of dry sand. Any steeper it just slumps.
Steeper angles can be attained with larger particles that are coarser, making them less slippery, or more closely fitted together, like the big, honkin’ particles that make up a pyramid. There you can go to about 45 degrees, but the builders tried 54 degrees until instability forced the change to 43 degrees. Why the initial mistake was made we can chalk up a rookie mistake they didn’t repeat.
It was clearly written by someone who has never been in a desert. The sand on an unstabilised dune isn’t like beach sand. It is dry, and it flows. Just walking up an unstabilised dune 20 metres in height is exhausting. A hundred people walking the same path up an unstabilised dune would churn the sans into a gully.
The idea of a hundred people trying to carry a stone of several tonnes for 20 metres up a gully churned in an unstabilised dune is utterly ludicrous. It would be significantly less possible than trying to carry the stone up without the sand getting in the way.
Then of course we have the problem the pyramids aren’t 20 metres tall, they are over 100 metres tall. Even in optimal conditions, to produce a dune that tall would take decades. And under those optimal condition, the sand would blow over the pyramids in decades after they had finished.
I don’t know all the heiroglyphs or all the sceptres and I know only a few of the icons. I just do happen to “know” what the “ankh” is. It is a glyph that means life because in a desert water is life. The ankh is a scientific perspective of the water spraying up: It is the “D3.t”. The horizontal part represents the horizon which is the high ground up out of the Nile valley where the true sunrise and sunset could be seen. The lower vertical piece is the “arm of nut”. This is an arm of the sky that reaches into the earth that she might embrace it and become impregnated with the seed of geb which will produce osiris (the geyser). Nut is she “who can not be impregnated without putting down her arm”. From the scientific perspective this is “set”, the natural phenomenon of the power of the water. “Sekhmet” is the power itself. The circle on top is the great circle that sets.
629b. behold, thou are bent around, and art round like the “Circle which encircles the nb.wt”;
629c. behold, thou art round and great like the “Great Circle which sets.”
It is re which illuminates the rainbow formed by the mist in the water. The “nb.wt” is probably the scientific term for the primeval mound.
In the center is often depicted short lines which represent the “djed” which is the scientific term for the device that allowed the water spray to be “stable and enduring”. The djed was a choke on the well cap which was adjustable by moving five teeth set into the flow and could be aimed using the w3s-sceptre.
The water sprayed up in a desert and everywhere the ground was watered there was life. It all came from the eye of horus.
507a. To say: N. is come forth to-day at the head of the inundation of the flood.
…
507c. effervescent, proceeding from leg and tail of the Great (One) who is in splendour.
508a. N. is come to his watercourses, which are in the land of the flood, in Mḥ.t-wr.t,
508b. to the places of satisfaction, with green fields, which are in the horizon,
509a. that N. may make green the herbs in both lands of the horizon,
509b. (and) that N. may bring the green to the great eye which is in the midst of the field.
The dead king (N) is transmogrified into the spraying water and asa the effervescent water he brings life to Giza.
I’ll just say that common sense indicates ramps were of limited use in building giant pyramids. The construction of the ramps would have been a major project in themselves to get very far above ground level. I’d also say that counterweights were used, but those were the weight of the laborers themselves pulling blocks up the sides of the pyramids with ropes that ran over the top of the pyramid.
I don’t understand much of the mystery about this, when you have thousands of laborers available giant stones are not that hard to move, it just takes a lot of men and a lot of rope. A 30,000 pound block can be moved by 300 men over a smooth enough surface, and there are plenty of ways already known to reduce friction. The reason more elaborate systems weren’t used is because they weren’t needed.
However, the pyramid weighs some 6 1/2 million tons and the average stone is about 140’ above where it came out of the quarry. There is no means to cheat gravity or reduce this amount of work 6,500,000 X 2000 X 140 ft lbs. This is simply a staggering amount even if they used a means that was 100% efficient. The total work would be the ft lbs times the reciprocal of the efficiency so an extremely highly inefficient means could multiply this already staggering number by thirty or forty fold.
In other words without a motive force or (and?) an efficient means the pyramid couldn’t have been built at that time. It required about 25 HP at 100% efficiency for twenty years. There simply isn’t room for the number of men required to accomplish this with most proposed means. This is especially true when you factor in that they only worked part of the day and part of the year.
The author of the study is simply mistaken and I presented proof in a previous post. This isn’t to say that they couldn’t have used internal ramps, but merely that the scan is being misinterpreted and apparently shows a five step pyramid. There are a few features of the scan which can be interpreted as “ramps” but there are nearly as many going in the opposite direction which cancels them out.
Look at the scan again.
You can clearly see that almost every line is parallel to the base. It is impossible for a line parallel to the base to be an artifact of a spiral ramp. These parallel lines are mostly 81’ 3" (or whole fractions thereof) apart in altitude strongly suggesting that this is a step pyramid. The tops of each of these steps also corresponds to thinner courses.
Internal ramps is a stroke of genius but there is not much evidence to support them and ramps are still debunked. If it’s difficult getting enough men on external ramps then it’s going to be much more difficult getting them on internal ramps. The infrared scanning desired by the author should be done but the results will simply put the final nail in the coffin for ramps. I believe the results will show how it was built no matter what method was used but without the data this is mere speculation.
