# How were you meant to order off this kind of 19th century menu? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** food-cooking\ **Created:** [July 7, 2022, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536 "2022-07-07T07:24:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/21 "2022-07-07T13:42:08Z")
1899 (the year of this menu) was literally two years before the official beginning of the Edwardian era. Inspired by a man who lived (and loved) to eat, it was an era of extravagant multi-course formal dinners, as exemplified by the famous menus from the first class of the Titanic. The era formally ended in 1910, but the culture continued for years after, and was certainly prevalent on the Titanic voyage in 1912. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/22 "2022-07-07T13:51:13Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Entree on that menu is clearly the same as it is in American dining today. Lamb cutlets, tournados of beef. Those are main courses. Very small dishes were hors d’œuvres. “Entree” mainly means the dish before roast. A chef at Delmonicos (from my link above) did say that the entree is considered a ‘main’ rather than a side, so in that sense I wasn’t accurate. > French dinners are generally served in three main courses, viz., Relevés, Entrées, and Rotis; all the rest are considered side courses. It depends entirely on the taste of the host as to how many main courses he desires served. The author would suggest two relevés, three entrées, and one or two rotis; this could be made an elaborate dinner. But even today, consider the ‘appetizer’ offerings at many restaurants. Some are small bites and some are essentially meals served without sides. The entree and appetizer categories have collapsed into each other since the 19th century and there aren’t really distinct lines anymore, at least in America. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats2)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/23 "2022-07-07T14:21:27Z")
At last! Someone who shares my hobby! I _love_ perusing old menus. I use the New York Public Library website to get my fix, but there are other sites as well. I swear, if I were offered a superpower, I’d ask for time travel. I’d do so many restaurant crawls. I’d love to try passenger pigeon pie. And then, I’d rescue a few breeding pairs and bring them back to the present with me. You gotta wonder about the environmental impact though. Ahhh, I’d still do it. I saw a YouTube video of someone hosting a Titanic dinner using recipes from the ship. I don’t often feel envious, but man, I did then. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/24 "2022-07-07T14:26:26Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I’ve ordered from menus of that general style. Maybe i didn’t show my high class in doing so, but i never found it especially difficult. Pick foods that together make a meal you want to eat. Order those. Wait for food to arrive, and consume it. No, don’t get a “ready” and a “roast”, unless you want two big main course servings. Yeah, it’s a menu, and like any other menu you can order what you want from it. There’s no rules about selecting particular types of foods. I’ve been in restaurants where I ordered several appetizers for a main course, the waitstaff and cooks weren’t at all confused by that. ---
**Author:** ![Bonum\_Legatum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bonum_legatum/32/6183_2.png) [@Bonum\_Legatum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bonum_Legatum)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/25 "2022-07-07T14:30:39Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > Oysters Rockerfeller at the Rockerfeller Hotel obviously. Not so obvious to me. For the original recipe you have to go to Antoine’s restaurant in New Orleans. When Antoine’s published a cookbook, Oysters Rockefeller was one of the few recipes left out. > **[Oysters Rockefeller](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oysters_Rockefeller)** > > Oysters Rockefeller consists of oysters on the half-shell that have been topped with a rich sauce of butter, parsley and other green herbs, and bread crumbs, then baked or broiled. Lemon wedges are the typical garnish. > The original sauce may or may not include spinach, a popular shortcut for achieving the dish's signature bright green color. Many contemporary adaptations use diced oysters instead of whole. Also, diced bacon often appears as a non-traditional topping in addition to or in place of... And - William Poundstone had a sample checked and published the findings in his _Bigger Secrets_ book. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/26 "2022-07-07T14:31:20Z")
Yeah, I don’t think Delmonico’s in 1899 was the sort of place that even let in rubes. ---
**Author:** ![Bonum\_Legatum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bonum_legatum/32/6183_2.png) [@Bonum\_Legatum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bonum_Legatum)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/27 "2022-07-07T14:33:43Z")
The menu published by the Original Poster reminded me of an article in the Smithsonian magazine about the original Mr. Duncan Hines. Yes - he was a real person who published travel guides based upon his personal experience. It is recorded that he was handed a menu at one restaurant, looked it over, and handed it back saying “I see nothing to object to.” What a trencherman! ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/28 "2022-07-07T14:42:11Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](#): > > I saw a YouTube video of someone hosting a Titanic dinner using recipes from the ship. I don’t often feel envious, but man, I did then. They probably got the recipes from this wonderful book, which is now sadly out of print, but which I have and have greatly enjoyed both for the great recipes and for the historical tidbits: > **[Last Dinner On the Titanic Menus and... by Archbold, Rick](https://www.amazon.ca/Dinner-Titanic-Menus-Recipes-Great/dp/078686303X)** > > Last Dinner On the Titanic Menus and... by Archbold, Rick ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats2)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/29 "2022-07-07T14:44:44Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > They probably got the recipes from this wonderful book, which is now sadly out of print, but which I have and have greatly enjoyed both for the great recipes and for the historical tidbits: Yes!!! I have that book!!! Look at it often, and yes it has complete instructions of how to assemble a Titanic dinner. No way I could do it, but I can dream. ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/30 "2022-07-07T14:46:23Z")
Delmonico’s is the first chapter of Paul Freedman’s very fine book, _Ten Restaurants That Changed America_, which I heartily commend to your attention. According to Freedman, this menu is nothing compared to what Delmonico’s once was. I quote: > [@](#): > > The oldest surviving menu from the “Restaurant Français des Frères Delmonico,” an eleven-page document from 1838, shows an astonishing mastery of French gastronomy: forty veal dishes ranging from sweetbreads to blanquette de veau; no fewer than eight preparations of partridge, and four styles of venison. The ubiquity of imported French truffles on the menu is remarkable. Truffles accompanied meat dishes but were also available by themselves _en croute_ or sautéed in Champagne. Freedman reproduces the cover of that menu, but unfortunately not any pages of the menu itself. That would have dated from the time when Lorenzo Delmonico himself, nephew of the Delmonico brothers who founded the place, was in charge. By 1899, when your menu comes from, Lorenzo was dead and the head chef was Charles Ranhofer. Freedman notes that Ranhofer was able to accommodate the American infatuation with “speed” in dining, as demonstrated by his ability to serve a 14 course meal in only two and a half hours! 😀 ---
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/31 "2022-07-07T16:36:10Z")
Join us! > **[r/VintageMenus](https://old.reddit.com/r/VintageMenus/)** > > r/VintageMenus: Old menus - pre-1985. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/32 "2022-07-07T16:51:44Z")
At the time, people ate multicourse meals when they had a formal dinner. I’ve seen similar menus for private dinner parties of the era. People generally ate all the courses. A formal dinner could last a couple of hours, so you weren’t eating it all at once. But the portions were smaller than what we are used to – more like what is now sold as small plates. Also, the people who would be eating this did not watch their weight; a portly body was a sign of wealth. Here’s J.P. Morgan, for instance. [![](https://cdn.britannica.com/61/25261-050-9ED938CF/John-Pierpont-Morgan-1902.jpg) ](https://cdn.britannica.com/61/25261-050-9ED938CF/John-Pierpont-Morgan-1902.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/33 "2022-07-07T17:13:14Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Also, the people who would be eating this did not watch their weight; a portly body was a sign of wealth. It was a time of great digestive distress (note the proliferation of Harvey Kellogg’s wellness camp, and his brother’s cereal). Can I assume that all these prices are listed in dollars and cents? I assume those two digit numbers are less than a dollar. (Is the $2.50 filet of beef, under entrees, the go to item?) Also, what sort of dress code are we talking about? I assume I have to take off my baseball cap, but are they gonna want me to put on a jacket? ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats2)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/34 "2022-07-07T17:18:33Z")
Also, if I time travel, I’m gonna hafta have a guy come with me. Unescorted ladies not allowed in a restaurant was a common rule. Poop. Hm, wonder if I could rig up a hologram. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/35 "2022-07-07T17:22:48Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](#): > > Hm, wonder if I could rig up a hologram. You managed to make a time machine. I think you got this. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/36 "2022-07-07T17:23:28Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > > [@RealityChuck](#): > > > > Also, the people who would be eating this did not watch their weight; a portly body was a sign of wealth. > > It was a time of great digestive distress (note the proliferation of Harvey Kellogg’s wellness camp, and his brother’s cereal). > > Can I assume that all these prices are listed in dollars and cents? I assume those two digit numbers are less than a dollar. (Is the $2.50 filet of beef, under entrees, the go to item?) > > Also, what sort of dress code are we talking about? I assume I have to take off my baseball cap, but are they gonna want me to put on a jacket? You’d have to wear a suit; the women would need to wear dresses. Note that upper-class men of the era wore suits all day. They would have a different suit to wear to a dinner and the women would have special dresses for socializing. It was expected that everyone dressed for dinner. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/37 "2022-07-07T17:45:03Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](#): > > Also, if I time travel, I’m gonna hafta have a guy come with me. Unescorted ladies not allowed in a restaurant was a common rule. Was it? Because gentlemen could not simply invite a lady friend to go out to a restaurant, either. However, Lorenzo Delmonico allowed the Sorosis Club to meet at his restaurant, unescorted by men, though this was an “extremely controversial decision”. ---
**Author:** ![Reno\_Nevada\_Jr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecc23a/32.png) [@Reno\_Nevada\_Jr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reno_Nevada_Jr)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/38 "2022-07-07T17:48:53Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > It was expected that everyone dressed for dinner. I don’t think this meant wearing a suit, for men. Doesn’t “dressing for dinner” imply white tie, and wearing a tuxedo would be unexpectedly informal? That was my impression from conversations between Jeeves and Wooster, anyway. Might not apply to restaurant dining. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/39 "2022-07-07T17:50:47Z")
Speaking of Gilded Age gluttony, here is a researched NYT article from 2008 [debunking the legend of Diamond Jim Brady.](https://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/31/dining/31diam.html) ---
**Author:** ![Seanette](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/seanette/32/9139_2.png) [@Seanette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seanette)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/40 "2022-07-07T17:52:41Z")
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