# How were you meant to order off this kind of 19th century menu? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** food-cooking\ **Created:** [July 7, 2022, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536 "2022-07-07T07:24:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![jaycat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jaycat/32/3015_2.png) [@jaycat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jaycat)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/61 "2022-07-07T22:48:13Z")
You folks who enjoy voluminous old menus might enjoy [this one](https://i.redd.it/bi9utnxtpxe41.jpg) from Jack and Marion’s deli in Brookline, Mass, circa 1950s I think. I used to dine there once in a while. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/62 "2022-07-07T23:12:08Z")
Behold the legendary 11-page menu from [Shopsin’s](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shopsin's). > **[shopsins\_menu.pdf](https://kottke.org/plus/misc/images/shopsins_menu.pdf)** ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/63 "2022-07-07T23:13:19Z")
Actually the general eating chicken tended to be smaller - around a kilo/2.2 pounds to about 1.3 kilo/3 pounds, basically what we now consider bantams. They used capons [gelded chickens] if they wanted something in the 4-5 pound/1.8 // 2.2 kilo range [which is roughly what we consider normal size now - our current capons can be up to 9 pounds/4 kilo.] I have an 8 pound capon in the freeze right now. So, half a bantam is something we could consider more like the weight of a current quarter chicken, or a whole bone in skin on chicken breast or leg/thigh bone in skin on quarter. Still, a bit much for an appetizer. I could see a breast quarter minus the wing as a decent small serving. As an entree I would consider an attereaux [cute little skewers of food, frequently served stuck into decorative bread loaves that you take the skewer and shove the food bits off onto a small plate and eat them.] ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/64 "2022-07-07T23:39:26Z")
> [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](#): > > Behold the legendary 11-page menu from [Shopsin’s](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shopsin's). I’ve been looking for this one! I saw it years ago but had forgotten the name, and “NYC restaurant with big menu” wasn’t leading me anywhere on Google. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/65 "2022-07-07T23:58:18Z")
I love the “extra special” sandwich with the note that you’re definitely getting overcharged for it. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2022, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/66 "2022-07-08T00:13:06Z")
I learned from Chef Ramsay that menus with dozens of choices don’t work. He constantly tells restaurants to pick what they do best and put on the menu. I would approach the Delmonico’s menu like a cafeteria menu. Pick a couple things that I want and don’t worry about courses. I’d fail the social status test. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2022, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/67 "2022-07-08T00:26:30Z")
This is purported to be a photo recreation of Delmonico’s first menu, from 1834. [![](https://i.ibb.co/3NXZbx7/943339-CA-4-BFE-4-BEB-91-E0-C35122-A9-C713.jpg) ](https://i.ibb.co/3NXZbx7/943339-CA-4-BFE-4-BEB-91-E0-C35122-A9-C713.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2022, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/68 "2022-07-08T00:33:14Z")
1834 seems a little early for “hamburger steak” to be on the menu. According to Wikipedia, the oldest known English use of the term is a Delmonico’s menu from 1873 that offered “hamburg steak” for ten cents. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2022, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/69 "2022-07-08T00:37:01Z")
I can’t vouch for it, but here’s the source. [https://collections.mcny.org/Collection/Burford%20Restaurant,%2084%20Seventh%20Avenue-2F3HRGKM354.html](https://collections.mcny.org/Collection/Burford%20Restaurant,%2084%20Seventh%20Avenue-2F3HRGKM354.html) ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2022, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/70 "2022-07-08T00:39:23Z")
I’m guessing that “pudding” is some sort of savory dish and not a dessert? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2022, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/71 "2022-07-08T00:43:59Z")
Apparently it’s from an unrelated Delmonico’s in the 1880s. > **[A famous fake](https://restaurant-ingthroughhistory.com/2012/01/31/a-famous-fake/)** > > . . . but not quite famous enough because many people still mistake the image shown here, dubbed “America’s first restaurant,” as a reproduction of a genuine Delmonico’s menu from 1834. It makes me… ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2022, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/72 "2022-07-08T00:50:05Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > “Formal” is white tie and tails > > “Informal” is black tie and tuxedo. Note that in Britain, a tuxedo is called a “dinner jacket.” It was specifically created for dinner wear–tails being hard to manage if you were to sit down. Tuxedo is “Semi-Formal”. “Informal” means a daytime business suit and tie. I think it’s called a “lounge suit” in Britain. Anything less than suit-and-tie is “Casual”. Formal: Daytime: [Morning Dress](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morning_dress), aka formal day dress. Nighttime: [Evening Dress](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_tie), aka white tie and tails, aka the penguin suit. Semi Formal: Daytime: [Stroller](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_lounge_suit), aka black lounge suit, aka Stresemann. Nighttime: [Black Tie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_tie), aka dinner jacket, aka Tuxedo jacket. [Informal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informal_wear) ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2022, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/73 "2022-07-08T01:28:38Z")
In addition, Delmonico’s was never at that address. From 1827-1835, they were at 23 and 25 William Street. They were an elegant French restaurant, not the sort of place one would expect to find crullers or pork and beans. Indeed, as I understand it the earliest menus were actually written in French. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2022, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/74 "2022-07-08T01:41:11Z")
> [@MrAtoz](#): > > Indeed, as I understand it the earliest menus were actually written in French. The menu I posted in the OP apparently had an identical menu in French on its backside; [![](https://cdn.firstwefeast.com/assets/2014/07/delmonicos_frenchmenu.jpeg) ](https://cdn.firstwefeast.com/assets/2014/07/delmonicos_frenchmenu.jpeg) (Unhelpfully, Garcia salad is apparently named the same thing in French, so I guess I’ll never know what sort of mayo-coated greens it consisted of.) > [@MrAtoz](#): > > In addition, Delmonico’s was never at that address. From 1827-1835, they were at 23 and 25 William Street. 494 Pearl St. is now a courtyard adjacent to the SDNY federal courthouse, while 23-25 William St is now part of a deli. > **[Open Market](https://openmarket.nyc/)** > > Online Order is Available! > Mon - Fri, 7am - 4:30pm ---
**Author:** ![JohnGalt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johngalt/32/184_2.png) [@JohnGalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnGalt)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2022, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/75 "2022-07-08T01:56:58Z")
With such a wide variety of foods, like squab, pigeon, duck, lamb, and chicken, how did they keep things fresh: ice chests/cellars? Or were items butchered close to when needed? Did they always have all the advertised ingredients available, or were people told specific things would be unavailable? There must be accounts of someone ordering menu items that were unavailable. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2022, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/76 "2022-07-08T02:05:10Z")
There were still actual farms in Manhattan at the time, so I imagine most of their stock was procured locally. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2022, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/77 "2022-07-08T02:26:40Z")
And you’d think the chef could always step outside to grab a couple of fresh pigeons. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2022, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/78 "2022-07-08T02:35:41Z")
Bird hunting at the time was a bit more industrialized than that. Punt guns were still legal back then. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/EzwbcVbE9rw/hqdefault.jpg "The Gun Nuts: Firing a 2-Gauge Punt Gun") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzwbcVbE9rw) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2022, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/79 "2022-07-08T02:51:45Z")
Also, in a 19th-century fancy restaurant a knowledgeable patron would expect to be able to consult the waiter, or even the restaurateur himself, to optimize his selections on that particular day. Here’s [Clarence Day’s childhood recollection of being taken to lunch at Delmonico’s by his father, sometime in the 1880s:](https://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks06/0608341h.html#c01) > [@](#): > > Delmonico’s stood upon a triangular-shaped plot of ground, with the front doors at the apex […] > > As Father and I went in the long crowded room, the head waiter led us with a flourish to a table for two. The air was fragrant with cigar smoke and the appetizing smell of rich, greasy cooking. A stately looking foreigner who was standing at the side of the room caught Father’s eye and bowed to him in a dignified way. > > “Lorenzo,” Father said to him, as he approached us, “this is my son.” > > I bobbed my head at him, rather embarrassed, and Mr. Lorenzo Crist Delmonico bowed and said he was happy to meet me. > > As he left us, old François, Father’s regular waiter, hurried up to our table, and he and Father had a talk, in French, about the best dish to order. They spoke so rapidly that I couldn’t understand a word of it, except that François kept assuring Father that we could rely on the sauce. “Parfaitement.” It seemed that the last time that Father had relied on this sauce, an admittedly difficult kind, he had had a severe disappointment. > > When anything of this sort occurred, I had noted, François had a healing way of dealing with such a catastrophe. He seemed even more shocked and perturbed at a failure than Father, and he would snatch the offending dish away and come racing back with a substitute. Usually he was accompanied at such moments by one of the Delmonico family–Lorenzo or Charles–who bent over the table to examine the new dish as it was placed before Father, murmuring most sympathetically about the unhappy misfortune. > > To-day the sauce and everything else was not only successful but perfect, and Father and François smiled and nodded in a congratulatory way to each other. […] > > I didn’t always appreciate French cooking myself. It tasted all right, but it was dainty and there wasn’t much of it. It seemed to me that Father got along with a very light lunch. When he was having his demi-tasse, however, and saw a hungry look on my face, he smiled understandingly and beckoned to François, who smiled too and presently came running back with a large chocolate éclair. The richness of its soft, thick yellow interior and the meltingness of its chocolate outside were so delicious that time stood still as I happily ate it, and I almost forgot where I was. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2022, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536/80 "2022-07-08T03:50:35Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > (Unhelpfully, Garcia salad is apparently named the same thing in French, so I guess I’ll never know what sort of mayo-coated greens it consisted of.) Not sure if this helps narrow it down, but a google search shows that Garcia salad was served in the school cafeteria in Craon, Mayenne on January 22, 2019: [https://www.eterritoire.fr/detail/sorties-ouest/restaurant-scolaire/3144945520/pays-de-la-loire,mayenne,craon(53400)](https://www.eterritoire.fr/detail/sorties-ouest/restaurant-scolaire/3144945520/pays-de-la-loire,mayenne,craon(53400)) so Garcia salad lives on 🙂 Here is one recipe: > Cut celery, apples, and fresh tomatoes in thin strips about two inches long, serve on lettuce leaves with French dressing. A slice of truffle on the top adds both to the appearance and flavor. (from The _Good Housekeeping_ Hostess manual, 1904) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-were-you-meant-to-order-off-this-kind-of-19th-century-menu/967536.md?page=5)