How will our era be misremembered 2000 years from now?

[Malthus]

@JWT_Kottekoe

OZYMANDIAS

by Percy Bysshe Shelley

I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed.
And on the pedestal these words appear:
“My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!”
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Replace “Ozymandias” with “Ronald McDonald” …

[Derleth]

@Malthus

Replace “Ozymandias” with “Ronald McDonald” …

“I am Ronald Wilson Reagan, King of Kings!”

[Crane]

Bosda,

You are incorrect.

The Roman (Octavian) deposed Cleopatra bringing the Ptolmaic period to an end. The Pharaohs ruled the Old Kingdom, long before Cleopatra. Their rule was ended by prolonged drought.

Sediment cores indicate that at the end of the Old Kingdom the Nile basin filled with aeolian sand. There may have been a greatly reduced channel but the floods stopped. It was essentially dry.

There are ample written records in the Old Kingdom tombs. The sediment cores speak volumes.

Crane

[Koxinga]

@Crane

Sediment cores indicate that at the end of the Old Kingdom the Nile basin filled with aeolian sand. There may have been a greatly reduced channel but the floods stopped. It was essentially dry.

And I trust you’re drawing on some reputable sources to (1) back up your assertion on the sediment cores and (2) demonstrate this correlation does indeed imply causation? Or is this your own observation & hypothesis?

And what can you point to regarding the common man and woman’s “world view” around this time? That would be very interesting to see indeed.

[Malthus]

@Koxinga

And I trust you’re drawing on some reputable sources to (1) back up your assertion on the sediment cores and (2) demonstrate this correlation does indeed imply causation? Or is this your own observation & hypothesis?

And what can you point to regarding the common man and woman’s “world view” around this time? That would be very interesting to see indeed.

If I may interject - I found this article which is pretty interesting. Click on the PDF.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/gea.10065/abstract;jsessionid=381BCA2FC07FFEED4B4AB3B2AB358C26.d01t04

[Crane]

Malthus,

Please do, but I get a blank page from your link.

Crane

[Malthus]

@Crane

Malthus,

Please do, but I get a blank page from your link.

Crane

Heh, not sure what I’m doing wrong - well anyway, here is the abstract:

Short contribution: Nile flow failure at the end of the Old Kingdom, Egypt: Strontium isotopic and petrologic evidence

Geoarchaeology
Volume 18, Issue 3, pages 395–402, March 2003

Abstract
Strontium isotopic and petrologic information, obtained from sediment cores collected in the Nile delta of Egypt, indicate that paleoclimatic and Nile baseflow conditions changed considerably from about 4200 to 4000 cal yr B.P. in the Nile basin. Our study records a higher proportion of White Nile sediment transported during the annual floods at ca. 6100 cal yr B.P. than towards 4200 cal yr B.P., at which time suspended sediment from the Blue Nile formed a significantly larger fraction of the total load. This resulted from a decrease in vegetative cover and an increase in erosion rate accompanying the marked decline in rainfall. These new geoscience data indicate major changes in annual flooding and baseflow of the river Nile, marked short-term paleoclimatic-related events that may in part have led to the collapse of the Old Kingdom. © 2003 Wiley Periodicals, Inc.

From the PDF:

A PALEOCLIMATIC CAUSE FOR THE COLLAPSE OF THE OLD KINGDOM

Historical records show that the Old Kingdom in Egypt continued successfully
until 2160 B.C. (4160 cal yr B.P.; Kitchen, 1991) when it quite suddenly collapsed into anarchy (Bell, 1971). It has been suggested that this was due, in large part, to catastrophic failure of the annual Nile flood for a period of 30 years. This was apparently followed by a second, shorter 10-year period of drought starting in 2020 B.C. (4020 cal yr B.P.). At this time, it was written in the inscription of Ankhtifi that:

All of Upper Egypt was dying of hunger, to such a degree that everyone had come to eating his children. . . .The entire country had become like a starved (?) grasshopper, with people going to the north and to the south (in search of grain) . . . ( Bell, 1971, p. 9)

Bell (1971) argues that the use of the Egyptian symbol tzw, in this and other texts, represents an image of exposed sandbanks, which, in this context, suggests that failed Nile floods caused the severe famine.

and conclusions:

Drought was widespread at ca. 4200 cal yr B.P. across Egypt and much of Africa and Asia, and this abrupt climatic event has been implicated in the collapse of civilizations in Syria, Mesopotamia, Turkey, and elsewhere (Dalfes et al., 1997;
Weiss, 2000). This widespread event may have been caused by weak monsoons
induced by a change in the circulation of the North Atlantic (Street-Perrott and
Perrott, 1990; Gasse, 2000). The systematic changes in both the annual flood and
baseflow of the river Nile, which we document here with new geoscience data, are
simultaneous with the end of the Old Kingdom in Egypt within our time resolution.
However, given the inherent problems of radiocarbon dating (Stanley, 2001), it
remains difficult to unambiguously identify events as short as several decades from conventional radiocarbon determinations alone. It thus becomes necessary to combine detailed archaeological information and chronologies with geochemical and petrological data, as presented here, to resolve and more accurately interpret shortterm paleoclimatic events such as the one leading to the collapse of the Old Kingdom.

[Crane]

Koxinga,

You can start here:

http://www.agiweb.org/geotimes/apr05/feature_NileFloods.html

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fhistory%2Fancient%2Fegyptians%2Fapocalypse_egypt_01.shtml&ei=sWVYTdKrHYK6sQP6-5mfDA&usg=AFQjCNEai699yg2KwHDDN6o2PDrUE-cE1Q

Much information on this period is being published by Fekri Hassan - Google it.

Crane
BTW:

Archaeological artifacts and sediments are not correlation studies. They are direct evidence.

Are you a sophomore?

[Crane]

Malthus,

Great, thanks!

Crane

[Crane]

Oh, yes, there was the issue of what we can know about the world view of folks 2000 years in the future. We cannot know what their world view will be but we do know it will be different from ours.

Their history and technology will deal with things for which we do not yet have words.

Crane

[Superhal]

Wow, you guys like this age?

1. After 50 years of the Cold War, the Korean War is still going on.

2. 3 major recessions since 1975.

3. 3 wars since 1990, the last two have lasted for 8 years and are still going on.

Just about the only thing going for us now is cool gadgets, and they’re only cool because they’re new. In a few years, nobody will remember nor care about the crap they used in 2011, just like how nobody uses Gameboy’s or PDA’s anymore.

Since 1911 (WW1), we’ve been cycling through crappy periods highlighted by a handful of good years in between. Before 1911, we were barely out of the stone age and trying to recover from the most devastating war in our history.

Personally, I would call the last 100 years the era of fear. We’ve lived in fear of commies, nuclear weapons, being poor, terrorists, and being poor again. If we’re lucky, we’ll survive the next hundred in better shape. If not, we’re going to end up like Orwell’s 1984.

[Martini_Enfield]

@Superhal

Since 1911 (WW1), we’ve been cycling through crappy periods highlighted by a handful of good years in between. Before 1911, we were barely out of the stone age and trying to recover from the most devastating war in our history.

WWI was 1914-1918, and I’m not sure what you mean about that “Barely out of the Stone Age” comment since it’s patently absurd unless you’re referring to 1911 BC.

[Bryan_Ekers]

“straight dope message board” ? Sounds like a place where primitive heteronormatives traded information on pre-legal narcostimulants.

[Dave_Hartwick]

Here’s some guesses at what a list of misconceptions from the future might look like.

Neil Armstrong was the first man in space. He got there in a device called a sputnik.

Everyone, everywhere owned a personal motor vehicle during the 20th century, most likely a Harley Davidson or possibly a Hummer, which gave the operator oral pleasure.

Thomas Edison invented the cure for polio, the telephone, and the Model T. The “Cindy Crawford” was the most popular version of the last item.

The “internet” was originally intended as a packet-switched networking solution but quickly became a delivery method for penis extenders that really worked. (The last bit is the misconception.)

Racism, sexism, and other prejudices weren’t very common and were overcome by legislating them out of existence. (I was thinking about this as I listened to a lecture today where the speaker mentioned that both Abraham Lincoln and Harriet Beecher Stowe considered slaves incapable of becoming citizens and advocated sending them back to Africa.)

Stephen Spielberg directed many famous films, such as Gone With the Wind, The Wizard of Oz, Taxi Driver, Titanic, and many more, but his greatest achievement, Sex and the City 2, never won the prestigious MTV award.

In 1939 Charlie Chaplin and his nazi regime enslaved Europe and tried to take over the world but were defeated by the Un, which Un-nazied the world-- forever.*

*Thanks, Idiocracy. Hope nobody already stole it.

[msmith537]

Chuck Norris was the greatest war criminal in history.

Michael Bay was our greatest news correspondent and documentarian, having covered the Pearl Harbor attack, American’s failed mission in Somalia (part of the onging 400 year old race war with the Negros), the War on Drugs in what was called Miami before it disappeared under the the melting ice caps, early experiments in cloning technology, mankind’s near extinction due to an asteroid impact and the decades-long interplanetary war with Cybertron.

In 4095, the Acadamy Award for “Best Director”, “Best Picture”, and “Best 5D-a-matography” will be a story about a heroic young commoner who rallies his people to defend his nation against foreign occupation by the army of a despotic King and his effeminate son. After many glorious battles (where he shot fireballs from his eyes and lightning from his ass), he will be betrayed and captured by his enemies. He will cry out FREEDOM!!! at his execution which will inspire his people for generations. His name was Saddam Hussein.

[Buck_Godot]

@xtisme

Even if modern books are more susceptible to deterioration than things like the dead sea scrolls there are orders of magnitude more books today than there were ever scrolls from Egypt…and they are distributed throughout the world. There are vast repositories in the US where books and other media are housed.

And all of this assumes some great collapse where all our data disappears. Why should it? Sure, that might happen, but it’s not something guaranteed to happen. Our digital data doesn’t rely on CD’s to house it…it simply relies on our distributed data networks to continue to operate. As the systems become more and more distributed and fault tolerant, the more secure that data becomes, assuming that you don’t have a complete collapse of the entire civilization.

And as long as we don’t go back to hunting and gathering, that leaves us with hundreds of billions of books, magazines and other printed materials, some non-zero percentage of which will survive to one degree or another…especially if we don’t lose the ability to make paper and use printing presses. As long as some civilization and technology survives a lot more of the information from our time will survive for future generations than survived the fall of Rome.

-XT

Furthermore we have historians and archivists who have the goal of preserving this kind of information. Two hundred years from now, the original letters of Lincoln may have been lost, but we will have research books that contain this information. Two hundred years after than we will have books that were based on those previous books, and so on, so that in 2000 years, baring civilizations collapse, we will be probably still be able to view the Gettysburg address in Lincoln’s own hand.

[Derleth]

@Buck_Godot

baring civilizations collapse

Except that, it seems, many people seem to need to believe that civilization totters on the very edge of the brink right now. This will be the last era, according to their mindset, and this will be the last, final end of history.

It’s a secular millennialism for some of them. Do not attempt to argue them out of it, for they become very cross.

[Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor]

@Crane

Bosda,

You are incorrect.

The Roman (Octavian) deposed Cleopatra bringing the Ptolmaic period to an end. The Pharaohs ruled the Old Kingdom, long before Cleopatra. Their rule was ended by prolonged drought.

Sediment cores indicate that at the end of the Old Kingdom the Nile basin filled with aeolian sand. There may have been a greatly reduced channel but the floods stopped. It was essentially dry.

There are ample written records in the Old Kingdom tombs. The sediment cores speak volumes.

Crane

<AHEM!>

Cleopatra

Cleopatra VII Philopator (in Greek, Κλεοπάτρα Φιλοπάτωρ; (Late 69 BC[1] – August 12, 30 BC) was the last person to rule Ancient Egypt as an Egyptian pharaoh.

She was a member of the Ptolemaic dynasty, and therefore a descendant of one of Alexander the Great’s generals who had seized control over Egypt after Alexander’s death.[2][3][4][5] Most Ptolemeis spoke Greek and refused to learn Egyptian, which is the reason that Greek as well as Egyptian languages were used on official court documents like the Rosetta Stone.[6] By contrast, Cleopatra learned Egyptian and represented herself as the reincarnation of an Egyptian goddess Isis. Cleopatra originally ruled jointly with her father Ptolemy XII Auletes and later with her brothers, Ptolemy XIII and Ptolemy XIV, whom she married as per Egyptian custom, but eventually she became sole ruler. As pharaoh, she consummated a liaison with Julius Caesar that solidified her grip on the throne. She later elevated her son with Caesar, Caesarion, to co-ruler in name.

After Caesar’s assassination in 44 BC, she aligned with Mark Antony in opposition to Caesar’s legal heir, Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus (later known as Augustus). With Antony, she bore the twins Cleopatra Selene II and Alexander Helios, and another son, Ptolemy Philadelphus. Her unions with her brothers produced no children. After losing the Battle of Actium to Octavian’s forces, Antony committed suicide. Cleopatra followed suit, according to tradition killing herself by means of an asp bite on August 12, 30 BC.[7] She was briefly outlived by Caesarion, who was declared pharaoh, but he was soon killed on Octavian’s orders. Egypt became the Roman province of Aegyptus.

Nuts to you, Jack.

[Crane]

Bosda,

Wikipedia is using the term ‘Pharaoh’ in a general sense.

The Ptolemys were long after the Old Kingdom.

Crane

[Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor]

@Crane

Bosda,

Wikipedia is using the term ‘Pharaoh’ in a general sense.

The Ptolemys were long after the Old Kingdom.

Crane

Crane–
Your argument’s not pinin’! Your argument’s passed on! Your argument’s no more! Your argument has ceased to be! Your arument’s expired and gone to meet its maker! Your argument’s a stiff! Bereft of life, your argument rests in peace! If you hadn’t nailed the argument’s feet to the perch the arument’s 'd be pushing up the daisies! Your argument’s metabolic processes are now ‘istory! The argument’s off the twig! The argument’s kicked the bucket, the argument’s shuffled off its mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin’ choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-ARGUMENT!!