You can make a good argument that that would have made more sense than hiring D’Antoni then or hiring Jackson as president today.
Right.
I just don’t find this very credible. There was no momentum on any of this until a week or two ago, and he could’ve said no at any time without losing face.
Those deals both died a year ago.
Well, you might remember it, but I don’t. Do you have a cite that Kobe made a public statement that would have been an endorsement for Howard staying made by Kobe himself? Not through the team or his publisist, but Kobe actually saying it in an interview? If so, I’d be interested in seeing it. I admit that I am not a huge NBA fan, and missing something about this story could have easily happened. But I remember the Howard story arc in LA fairly well, because I was initially surprised he would leave LA. That is not a place players usually leave willingly.
You also seem to think that public statements are not important. What is said in public IS important, (to some players more than others for sure), but you can’t always ignore it. I do agree that we can often tell if someone’s public statements are sincere or done for PR reasons (at least we THINK we can), but my guess is that the players involved know exactly what others think of them, regardless of what is said publicly. Howard by many accounts is more sensitive than most players, and needs public affirmation. If Kobe actually put it out there that he valued Howard as a teammate and that the Laker organization would be better with Howard going forward than without him, (and Howard believed him), maybe things would have ended differently. But it seemed that it was fairly common knowledge within the NBA community and the talking heads who cover it that they had a poor relationship. What kind of relationship they actually have I don’t know. I have no more inside knowledge than you.
I don’t recall Kobe putting his arm around Howard either actually or figuratively. He may not have said “get him out of here”, but I don’t remember him making a public statement when Howard left indicating his disappointment of howard’s decision, nor do I remember him making a public announcement saying that he really wanted Howard to stay before Howard made his decision to go. And I would bet that even IF Kobe would have done this, Howard would have not believed it. As you said, and as I understand the relationship, Kobe and Howard did not get along well at all.
We do agree that there was nothing that LA could have done, aside from trading or cutting Kobe, that would have swayed Howard in any way to stay. And since that wasn’t happening, he was gone.
You may think it’s over-rated, but it isn’t. There have been studies done, and one thing that is for sure is that being in NY or LA is much better for a star player’s bank account.
When you are talking national endorsements, I agree with you. But NY and LA have a much larger pool of local and regional businesses that employ sports stars that medium and small markets just don’t have. Kevin Durant may make a bunch of money in endorsements, but getting those second tier contracts, like a large car dealership representing the NYC metro area would pay MUCH more than say “Bob’s Used Car Emporium, of the Tri-county area”. Think of the restaurants, and other businesses that large meteo areas have. And speaking of restaurants, a star can open a restaurant or lend his name to something like that in both places, but a big metro environment has more resources, more people to spend money on their endorsed products, eat at their restaurants, and so on. Local TV advertising rates vary per location also, obviously, which also plays into how much a player is compensated.
There is just more opportunity for endorsements and visibility. Not everyone wants or needs it, but for those that do, those are the places they seek out. And there is no way you can minimize the potential that NYC gives a player over a place like Pittsburgh, for example. If Michael Strahan played his career in Pittsburgh, I can almost bet my life that we would not be seeing his ugly mug on the Today show every morning. But he was all over the place in NYC as a Giant, which gave networks and sports outlets access to him that wouldn’t have been as easy in Pittsburgh. Plus, his face was recognizable by millions of Giant fans, he appeared on billboards and local commercials and then on NFL game day programming and analysis, which gave him more visability and credibility with the viewing public that may not have been the biiggest Giant fan, Strahan fan or football fan. He became part of something larger than just the NFL, and that wouldn’t have happened if he didn’t live in NY.
That’s the kind of opportunity that is available to players that are in those markets that simply don’t exist elsewhere.
I will see if I can find the one study I read that covered this. It was very interesting. I believe the study was about LeBron and the money he has made now vs. when he was in Cleveland with external endorsement deals. Miami is not exactly NY or LA, but it is bigger than Cleveland. When LeBron left, as I understand it, he left money on the table in Cleveland, similar to what would happen if Camello decides to leave NY after this year., but he has more than made up for it.
I don’t know the numbers off-hand, but as I understand it, the team that currently has your rights can offer you a max contract that outbids any contract that you could receive if you left via free agency. Maybe you know the NBA pay structure and can answer this better, but if i remember correctly, if Carmello leaves NYC, he will be leaving literally tens of millions of dollars on the table for the chance to leave.
I know that the team is set up as you describe, but I have a hard time believing, if the Busses have a functional sibling relationship, that Jeanie couldn’t get her fiancée a job if he wanted one (and they wanted him there).
Yes, it’s her brother’s call on paper, but we are talking about her future husband, his future brother-in-law, and an icon of Laker basketball.
However, I can see why brother Buss wouldn’t want Phil there. He would diminish the power and the image of Buss, at least in the public’s eyes, and that could get contentious. I can also see why Phil wouldn’t want to be there, and he may have not wanted to work that close to Jeanie.
Well, if you are asking me if I could prove this in court, the answer is no. This was speculation from some of the NBA talking heads on ESPN. I just regurgitated it. The thought was that because it drew out so long, Phil wasn’t exactly chomping at the bit to take the position. I don’t know if those guys have any insight into the specific language of the contract, or have sources inside the Knick organization or spoke to Phil. Nothing specific was pointed out. Your take is equally as plausible.
It did appear that Phil asked for things that he probably wouldn’t have asked for if he was dying to get the job. I guess when you can make an organization beg after you to take a $12 million a year job, that’s got to feel pretty damn good. Or maybe the length of time it took to hash out the details is normal for this kind of role, and we were just paying more attention to it because of the team and person involved, and it was being jammed down our throats every day for over a week and a half on sports TV and radio (which sadly, I am a consumer of).
According to ESPN which I was watching yesterday, he DID say that. I don’t remember what talking head said it, but it was clear that he was quoting something he believed Phil said.
I’m not just making this stuff up on the fly. I am repeating what I heard on ESPN, nothing more. Why they would make something up like that is obvious… It gets people talking. But, I never heard it being denied. Did you hear that one being denied? Because you sound like you know for sure that he didn’t say that, which would indicate that you heard this specific topic being discussed with Jackson and he specifically said “not true”.
I’m curious how you are so sure that he didn’t say this.
Kobe in August 2012: “I will probably play two, three more years. Then the team is his. I am excited for the Laker franchise because they have a player that can carry the franchise well after I am gone. It should be his and he should be willing to accept that challenge.”
On balance, no, they aren’t. Not compared to the other elements that go into a decision like this. No matter how solicitous Kobe was in public - and I think he said everything he was supposed to say - it did not count for very much compared to the state of the team, their relationship, and so on.
He definitely didn’t say that because he understood his chances of winning a championship were much better with Howard than without him.
He was part of the Lakers’ “stay with us” pitch to Howard after the season. That was widely reported. He did what he could to keep him around. That was not the problem.
Exactly. That’s why I’m saying the public gestures - which he absolutely did make - counted for nil.
Where are the studies?
I do live in New York, so I have some familiarity. I can’t find a detailed breakdown of, say, Carmelo Anthony’s endorsements- but he gets $8 million from Nike alone. I don’t think car dealerships measure up to that.
This is a side note, but… not that long ago ESPN did a 30 for 30 story about athletes who’d gone bankrupt. It was fascinating and sad, and you wouldn’t believe how many of them had tried to open restaurants.
OK, that’s partly true. But Strahan is obviously really interested in working in entertainment. He also had a TV series for about 10 minutes. If you are good on camera and want to work in entertainment, being in NY or LA has some extra benefits. If you’re not, though, it doesn’t have much value. Meanwhile Troy Polamalu is still in Pittsburgh and has at least one major endorsement deal, and LeBron had all kinds of endorsements in Cleveland. So does Durant in Oklahoma City.
He ultimately went to Miami in a sign-and-trade, which let him make more money than if he’d left as a true free agent. He did accept less than the maximum salary, just as Wade and Bosh did. I think he could’ve made about $15 million more over six years. Sign-and-trades are harder to do now, though, and if Carmelo leaves New York he will probably give up significantly more money than that: he can stay with the Knicks for $129 million over five years or sign with another team for $96 million over four years.
What you said before was that she could have gotten him a job with the team. It’s not up to her alone, so that’s not true.
Phil also would have gotten all of the credit if they won. And he’s not the easiest guy to work with, especially at this stage of his career: he does want you to kiss his ring and if he’s going to work with you, he’ll make sure you know it’s on his terms because of He Is the Great Phil Jackson. If Jim Buss feels he has a good blueprint and a good working relationship with Mitch Kupchak, I can see why he didn’t want to get Phil Jackson involved. I think they’re perhaps more distant from him than they need to be and the D’Antoni thing was very confusing, but they can’t undo that now.
I’m not demanding that you prove it- neither of us is in a position to prove anything. I’m just saying I don’t believe it at all.
I read some quotes from the press conference, and while it’s very possible he wants to do this, he was not that clear about it. He did say “I believe in system basketball. Steve Mills came out of Princeton, I came out of a system that we ran here in which team ball was an important aspect of playing. […] It’s not an insistence but I do like to have a system. I like a method of playing basketball. I think there’s a logical method of playing basketball.” You can take that as a statement that he wants the team to run a triangle offense for sure. He just didn’t come out and say it in those words.
Thanks for linking this article. That is a pretty powerful bunch of quotes that are supplied in there. Granted, that was in August of 2012, but there is no way you can read or hear those quotes and not get that Kobe was pleased with Howard coming in. I don’t recall what, if anything, he said at the end of the season, but he was clearly excited at the prospect of having Howard come to LA.
I have to be honest. Kobe should have been excited to see Howard coming to the Lakers, because at the time that happened, I thought the Lakers were going to contend. I had no idea it would have played out as it did, and I’m sure no one in LA did either.
I said in my last post that I’m going to try to find it. I read it on-line, but I don’t remember who actually did it, whether it was a university or someone who was just number crunching and published it, or what. I am almost positive it was about LeBron, because I don’t follow the NBA much at all, and LeBron is one of the only players who I will read about. But, based on what you mentioned (he was a sign and trade instead of a free agent who left a lot more money on the table in Cleveland) maybe I have the player wrong too.
I will do my best to find it because if you are interested in the economics of basketball (and it sounds like you are) I think you will enjoy it. It will probably turn out to be something I found on some junior high school kid’s blog somewhere, but if that’s where I find it, I’ll post the link.
Right, and I think he was excited. Howard was his best chance to win more titles. For a while there it looked like they were going to get Chris Paul and then Howard. You can see their new strategy is a longshot even if they’re implementing it correctly.
Oh definitely, 100% true about that. Phil knows how to coach big men in a style that maximizes their talent. D’Antoni alienated Pau and said right off the bat that he doesn’t like playing post. I think Phil definitely would have helped Howard stay but all things pointed to him not being hired back in any capacity
From what Jeanie said this week, Phil had been in negotiations with the Knicks since December. Maybe the fans didn’t find out about it until now, but there would have been some public blowback, a story like this wasn’t going to stay buried
Well Kobe says a lot of things, he’s not secretive or shy about his feelings. I don’t remember anything directly, but there were reports that Kobe mentioned he wasn’t going to lobby Howard, he considered that act beneath him. Take that with a grain of salt, I listen to a lot of LA sports talk every day going to and from work. I do remember, quite clearly, that Kobe distinctly mentioned it was still his team, and not Howards, and that he’d be glad to pass it along. I think from the beginning, Howard thought and wanted the team to be his and that was part of the friction between them
Total confirmation bias, but it was last year, sometime during the middle of the season, that Charles Barkley was complaining that he sees more Chris Paul and Blake Griffin commercials than Lebron ones. Now I don’t know if its just playing in the LA market more because I live here, but I see a ton of spots for Paul (All State) and Griffin (Kia), they are on all the time, and occasionally a Lebron ad, and almost none for any other player. Hell, Kia even rigged (I dunno if “rigged” is the right word for an exhibition contest) the dunk contest a few years ago by bringing in a car for Griffin to jump over. I think JaVale McGee publicaly complained about that afterwards
Good timing on this! Jeanie Buss JUST concluded an hourlong interview with call-ins from fans on ESPN 710 radio with Mason and Ireland. They asked about the structure of the team and answered some questions you had. Here’s the gist of it:
Jeanie is basically the de factor “owner” because the NBA doesn’t want to deal with several part owners. She and her 5 siblings have a majority stake in the Lakers with 3 other part owners. Since she is the head of her circle of siblings, what she says goes. So yes, Jeanie could get Phil a job if she were willing to govern not by consensus but by executive fiat, but she’s unwilling to do that.
She said that given Jim and Mitch’s position, there simply wasn’t an opening for Phil. They don’t need any more basketball minds, they have them, and Phil wanted to join that circle but Jim really wasn’t looking for another opinion. And Jeanie is unwilling to force Jim to accept Phil. She also said that the decision to bring in Phil wasn’t 5-1 against Jim, but there were others who didn’t want him there.
Well, if you are asking me if I could prove this in court, the answer is no. This was speculation from some of the NBA talking heads on ESPN. I just regurgitated it. The thought was that because it drew out so long, Phil wasn’t exactly chomping at the bit to take the position. I don’t know if those guys have any insight into the specific language of the contract, or have sources inside the Knick organization or spoke to Phil. Nothing specific was pointed out. Your take is equally as plausible.
It did appear that Phil asked for things that he probably wouldn’t have asked for if he was dying to get the job. I guess when you can make an organization beg after you to take a $12 million a year job, that’s got to feel pretty damn good. Or maybe the length of time it took to hash out the details is normal for this kind of role, and we were just paying more attention to it because of the team and person involved, and it was being jammed down our throats every day for over a week and a half on sports TV and radio (which sadly, I am a consumer of).