How will pleasing the base get Dem candidates in trouble with the general electorate?

[RTFirefly]

@Mr. Moto

This could go on for years if we don’t pin down specifics. So I’ll pick just one - education.

Now, most of the country wants big changes to be made in the education system,

Polls I’ve seen show that most people are pretty happy with their educational system; that somebody else’s schooling may need fixing, but theirs is pretty good.

So pardon me if I’m skeptical about this claim. Aside from the “NCLB went too far” crowd, I don’t see education being very high on the general public’s priorities in 2008. And there’s no real conflict between that group and the part of the Dem base you mention.

And in issue after issue, from farm policy to Social Security to the war, the same thing can be said.

Then make your case. This thread is for doing that. There’s no need to restrict yourself to offhand remarks as you might in some other thread where this would be an off-topic digression.

[Lamar_Mundane]

@Mr. Moto

This could go on for years if we don’t pin down specifics. So I’ll pick just one - education.

Now, most of the country wants big changes to be made in the education system,

See, this just isn’t true. The vast majority of people are just fine with their public schools. It may seem like everyone hates the public education system, but only if you listen to a lot of talk radio. This goes with the other current thread about Republicans not “getting” the internet - The Republican style of news dissemination doesn’t allow room for dissention, so you only hear the talking points repeated over and over. This can make it seem like everyone believes the same things when in reality you’re just not hearing the other side.

Outside of the dig city schools districts, which IMO are bloated and need reform, people live their local schools. A very conservative group in Colorado Springs took over the school board there a few years back and started to implement their ideas about school reform, the same ones you hear about on the radio - lots of testing, doing away with tenure, etc. The people hated it and many students lost their favorite teachers as they moved to other districts, and the “reform” slate was thrown out completely at the next election. The majority of people like their schools just the way they are.

[Mr.Moto]

@Lamar Mundane

The majority of people like their schools just the way they are.

Sure. And why is that? Could it be because of a school choice system we have in this country that allows most people to choose a decent school system by moving to a decent school district?

Of course, if circumstances do not allow you to move to where the choice schools are, you are screwed. And it isn’t a coincidence that districts that are nightmares when it comes to financial accountability in their schools tend to fail their students academically as well.

I like my health care as well, and I think lots of people would say they are satisfied with their care - which does not mean that they believe the current system is just, sustainable, or well-run. The same could be said for education. A system which tolerates such nightmarish school districts as exist in our inner cities and our poorer rural areas cannot be considered a just one.

Now, part of the solution ought to be some kind of standards and accountability on the teacher side. I don’t think such measures ought to be draconian. But they ought to be able to fire teachers for something other than diddling a student.

[Lamar_Mundane]

@Mr. Moto

Sure. And why is that? Could it be because of a school choice system we have in this country that allows most people to choose a decent school system by moving to a decent school district?

Of course, if circumstances do not allow you to move to where the choice schools are, you are screwed. And it isn’t a coincidence that districts that are nightmares when it comes to financial accountability in their schools tend to fail their students academically as well.

I like my health care as well, and I think lots of people would say they are satisfied with their care - which does not mean that they believe the current system is just, sustainable, or well-run. The same could be said for education. A system which tolerates such nightmarish school districts as exist in our inner cities and our poorer rural areas cannot be considered a just one.

Now, part of the solution ought to be some kind of standards and accountability on the teacher side. I don’t think such measures ought to be draconian. But they ought to be able to fire teachers for something other than diddling a student.

You’ve just acknowledged that the problem is not a function of the public school system in general, nor of the teacher’s unions. The problem lies in the school district, usually poor urban districts.

Anyway, we’re veering off topic.

[John_Mace]

@RTFirefly

Polls I’ve seen show that most people are pretty happy with their educational system; that somebody else’s schooling may need fixing, but theirs is pretty good.

So pardon me if I’m skeptical about this claim. Aside from the “NCLB went too far” crowd, I don’t see education being very high on the general public’s priorities in 2008. And there’s no real conflict between that group and the part of the Dem base you mention.

Polls can’t always reliable, but since you mentioned them I’ll note that in this poll (third one down) 81% of respondents said education as an issue was extremely important are very important in terms of selecting a presidential candidate. The other polls on that page put education as 2nd tier type issue, but that still makes it an issue.

[RTFirefly]

@John Mace

Polls can’t always reliable, but since you mentioned them I’ll note that in this poll (third one down) 81% of respondents said education as an issue was extremely important are very important in terms of selecting a presidential candidate. The other polls on that page put education as 2nd tier type issue, but that still makes it an issue.

Polls are certainly a lot better than nothing. Sometimes they have problems, but barring something specific that I can point to as particularly troubling, I’d put a hell of a lot more weight on a sample of 1000 voters by a reputable polling outfit than I would on even my own astoundingly accurate gut feeling of where Americans stand.

And the top poll on that page says that people trust Dems to do a better job on education issues by a 41-19% margin over Republicans. So it looks as if, contra Mr. Moto, its minor effect will likely be a positive one for the Dems.

[David_Simmons]

@RTFirefly

… I’d put a hell of a lot more weight on a sample of 1000 voters by a reputable polling outfit than I would on even my own astoundingly accurate gut feeling of where Americans stand.

Gut feeling are used by the very highest levels in the executive department and in the security department for the purpose of setting national policy. You unAmerican or something?

[RTFirefly]

@David Simmons

Gut feeling are used by the very highest levels in the executive department and in the security department for the purpose of setting national policy. You unAmerican or something?

Yep, and because I’m one of them commie hippie libruls, it would be unAmerican to base policy on my gut feelings.

Now to base American policy on the gut feelings of a true-blue American like George W. Bush, that’s totally different. The fact that he’s a total fuckup doesn’t enter into the question at all.

[elucidator]

“Gut feeling”, my ass, its “feminine intuition” with a dick.

[Steve_MB]

@Sam Stone

It just seems to me that the Democrats are veering sharply to the left.

Yeah, just as the Republicans veer to the right during primaries, for the same reason.

After watching the “I’m pro-er-life than thou” road show, you’re going to have a hard time selling the notion that this is more of a problem for the Democrats.