After liberals gut the military and use all the money for any half-baked social programs, a foreign country (China) begins to threaten us. Instead of taking the threats seriously and rebuilding our military, they just try to appease the government and spend too much time on diplomatic talks that go no where.
Undoubtedly true…not necessarily a bad thing though. Lets think about it…how much of our current system would the Founding Fathers recognize and like? Not very much would be my guess…on either count. And yet, anyone here want to defend that the old way was best? That we, as a people, didn’t grow and change in 200+ years? That the culture, mores, etc didn’t change?
Projecting into the future, undoubtedly the nation will undergo even more changes…which is a GOOD thing. Perhaps in the future things like racism will be completely (or mostly) buried. I think we are headed in that direction already…its sure a hell of a lot better than when I was a kid…and orders of magnitude better than when my grandparents were kids.
I see a lot of folks are predicting that this change will necessarily be for the worst…all kinds of gloom and doom about dictatorships and such. I guess I just don’t see it. Sort of like I didn’t see the frantic left wingers claiming Bush was going to set aside the elections and declare himself king or something. 
I really hadn’t realized it was so bad! :eek: I know that when Japan’s version of the housing bubble collapsed that the entire nation completely collapsed before that communist dictatorship took over…and the exact same thing could happen to US (especially considering that their ‘bubble’ made ours look like it came out of a childs bubble bath bottle 
).
I agree that the end of cheap oil is pretty much upon us…but this seems to be something that will effect everyone, not just the US. Well, maybe some bushmen in Africa or some Pacific islanders on some remote island won’t really notice too much…
Why would Saudi citizens rise up if we invaded Iran? Iran is a Shi’ite dominated nation and Saudi is Sunni. Leaving that aside, I’m sure you realize that oil is sold as a commodity on the world market…so, I have doubts that the US could be cut off from oil in this way by SA or Venezuela…or anyone else. It would take a blockade to do so…and thats going to be rather hard for The World™ to enforce, what with our Navy and all.
You aren’t a bit bitter about the US are you? ‘big, bad, fat, stupid, arrogant’ AND oppressive are we? I think you are projecting (or maybe fantasizing) here a bit. JMHO of course. I do agree that climate change (I’m unsure if it will constitute a collapse) is most likely in all our futures.
Fair enough (though you really seemed serious about the whole manufacturing thing). Did you realize though that when I put one of these ( ) in I’m jesting too?
I believe that there will be a rebalancing at some point with reguard to the US’s debt…but that this won’t ever constitute others stop lending us money…because frankly we will ALWAYS be able to repay. We are a wealthy nation after all with vast natural resources…if nothing else. Hell, FRANCE gets loans man…if THEY can repay with their fucked up system I’m pretty confident we will too. (mostly tongue in cheek there as global finance doesn’t actually work like either of our strawmen…well, more like mine than yours )
Well, for myself I was just trying to keep it real. Speculation is all well and good, but (IMHO here) yours were bordering on speculation that the US will be destroyed by giant alien star fish…i.e. while its technically possible, its improbable in the extreme. Sure, its POSSIBLE that every (or even a large majority) of US companies will devolve into Enron like self destruction…but its kind of as likely as those star fish invading.
Oil on the other hand IS likely to be a major problem and I agree that its plausable that this could lead to not only the US going down but to our current civilization collapsing. I think its unlikely…but it IS possible (and more plausable than those star fish :)).
-XT
I don’t think such guesses make much sense. There’s no way to know what could happen in the very long term. Or actually 50 years from the road.
Also, what would count as the “end of the USA”?
-Let’s suppose the European Union becomes someday as integrated as the USA, hence France becomes a non-independant country, like say, Texas in the USA. Would you say it’s the end of France? Similarily, if there’s someday a world government with the USA as a “state”, is it the end of the USA?
-Modern China doesn’t have much to do with China at the end of the 19h century. Was it the end of China? If the political and economical system of the USA changes as much over the course of a century, does it count as the end of the USA? Is the People’s Empire of Northern America the same country as the USA? What about the American Federation of Utopian Libertarian Communities? The Very Holy American Theocracy?
-Let’s assume a new civil war or a peaceful split Checzoslovalia style, with both new countries keeping mostly the same political system and culture, does it count as the end of the USA?
-The USA collapses economically, or just lags behind and becomes a poor and backward country by comparison with say, the now powerful, wealthy and advanced Sudan but retain its political structure. Is it the end of the USA?
-The USA retains its power, political system, etc… but its culture changes drastically. It becomes, say, a mostly islamic country where the most common language is Spanish. Is it the end of the USA?
Is modern Egypt the same country as Ramses II’s Egypt? The french 4th republic in 1957 the same country as the french 5th republic in 1958? Washington’s USA the same as Bush’s USA? What does count as the end of a country?
That’s possible.
It is equally possible that a chain of short-sighted Conservatives will engage in a series of ill-advised wars that result in a demoralized & depleted military, & a crippling debt. Resulting in the precisely identical China scenario.
We need to pick & choose our battles, RandMcnally, & use subversion, espionage & political conniving to divide & conquer our opposition.
Cunning pays big dividends. Remember that.
Two old Klingon Proverbs–
This cuts both ways–let’s make it work for us.
You need to keep that last one in mind, RandMcnally. Pick your fights.
. . . but since China has neither the capability nor the desire to invade or occupy the U.S., nothing really happens to the U.S., other than that we have to sit by and watch impotently as Taiwan is overrun.
Well, what about fully-baked social programs. Do you want a country without social programs? Social programs helped get us out of the Depression and enabled our economy to work overtime for wars.
By the way, BrainGlutton , you took my choice. I just saw this thread, so I get to enter the party late, once again.
Is a draft seen as a social program?
Like Samclem, I’m an optimist.
The United States won its independence, against all odds, from the military superpower of the 18th century. It has since endured and overcome repeated economic reverses (of which the Great Depression is only one of the most recent and most severe), foreign invasion, two world wars, epidemics, and a particularly bloody and divisive civil war. We face many problems today: the ballooning Federal debt, our dependence upon foreign oil, and foreign investors to buy T-bills; our (mostly) crappy public schools, racial tension, a culture of corruption in Washington, etc. But we’ve solved worse problems, and in time we’ll probably be able to fix these (or at least, learn to live with them).
The Constitution contains the means of amendment, and can changed to respond to unforeseen crises. The American people, for all their (usually justified) cynicism about government, are passionately patriotic. They would not let the nation collapse, as most Soviet citizens were more than willing to let the USSR do, if they could possibly prevent it.
Even the Framers would recognize the current structure of the Federal government and its component states; the tripartite division of checks and balances; the Constitution and its amendments. We have changed a lot since 1787, but the essentials remain and abide, and that’s why. I suspect that the United States will continue in much the same as its present form - allowing always for social change and the impact of technological advances - unless and until some truly global catastrophe overcomes the planet (runaway global climate change, comet impact, pandemic - name your poison), or a democratic, peaceful world government is established, and every nation-state becomes superfluous.
But I’m not holding my breath for either…
Bah. All of you are wrong. The United States will end exactly how all the other countries of the world will, and around the same time.
An economic collapse will overwhelm the United States, and cause all of our angry, bold people to look for an explanation. The only real explanation is that we all fell asleep at the wheel and stopped giving a damn about what happened to the world that didn’t affect our lives.
The economic collapse will be caused by a number of things including:
The evening of the distribution of the world’s resources due to a renewed sense of running the country “for the people.”
The rising of the third world’s voice in the global community, angered over the blatant examples of tyranny by the US. What we are doesn’t have to be what we’re being made out to be. Right now we really look like jackasses, especially since everyone knows getting into Iraq was a lie and yet we do nothing about it.
The housing bubble finally pops due to continued job losses, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac implode under a wave of defaults. This causes massive derivative failures to occur, and compounded with all the major corporate bankruptcies, banks go under too. A lot of banks have been merging, probably trying to get “too big to fail” and thus get a government bailout, but good luck getting one of those with what’s coming.
Energy costs will continue to rise, especially with increased turmoil in the Middle East. We invade Iran because of the nukes they might build, and a major supplier goes out of commision. Venezuala doesn’t care to sell to us anymore, and perhaps someone eventually rises up and unites all of Islam in a common goal?
You see, these guys are really beginning to feel like they’re being pushed back into a corner. Muslims are lashing out against Christians in the third world, because somehow we let this war turn from “US vs. Saddam” to “US and Christianity vs. Islam”. Having stupid, uneducated, fat, greedy citizens saying stupid things like “Goddam crazy towel-heads!” and continuing to not give a damn even though we found out that our administration lied about our reasons for going to war sure doesn’t help the situation. Again, this is debatable but in the vast majority of the third world’s eyes we already realize this, and if we don’t we should and why do we continue to not care to find out while their people suffer, anyways?
Anyways, a climate collapse and not just a climate change starts taking place and really seals the deal, and now religion’s role in our demise starts:
Droughts continue to sweep across Africa, only harder. The monsoons don’t show up in India at all. The Amazon experiences More droughts as well. The already-dying eceans and all the coral reefs continue dying some more. Another dust bowl sweeps across the United States. Things get a lot hotter and the weather grows more violent. As the people of the United States begin to starve, cancer and disease will sweep over us as the pollutants and heavy metals stored in our bodies are no longer contained by the usual processes. Gangs and gun-toting crazy people will be running around the streets stealing food, raping and pillaging for fun. The actions of these few will speak for us all in the eyes of the world.
God must be angry, right? A rift has already begun to divide the world’s people. The developed world vs. the third world. Christianity vs. Islam. The people of the third world/Islam will unite against us, and the religious wars will be on. After that who knows? Looks pretty bleak though, and I’m pretty sure we’ve been lead into this.
Ya know what? You guys sound like a bunch of Bible-thumping fundies squawking about the Apocalypse and the Second Coming.
Just saying that’s how I see it going down, because regardless if you think it’s ridiculous or not, there are Bible-thumping fundies, and there are people filled with a sense of religious purpose, and there *will[i/] be a giant clash between them because of what is going on.
Oh, so you don’t have an answer then… :rolleyes: I particularly like the fact how you encompass a wide array of possible doom scenarios and include all countries of the world. Good to see an equal opportunist.
Yes, but realize any major/quick downshift in the American economy will result in the rest of the world getting hit much, much harder, especially those cash giants Japan (ok, was a cash giant, but it seems to be holding on fairly well with the 0% interest and stagnant economy and all that) and China, because they hold a majority of our bonds. The middle east has a pretty heft share, too. When these bonds default (like that will ever happen :rolleyes: ), the European markets will take a monster beating, too. Oh, and India’s middle class collapses as their biggest market (i.e. the US) can no longer afford their outsourcing services.
When the US does falter as the world’s largest economy, through competition, and not through some massive market shock, it will be a good thing for the world, in most respects. It would most likely mean that the rest of the world has caught up to our GDP output, meaning, that they also enjoy our standard of living and would most likely embrace a democratic government as well. With the entire world as a democracy there will be even less incentive to go to war. However, I think the declining populations of Europe and Japan are bigger issues and will come to a head long before this rosy scenario happens.
Of course I included a wide array of possible doom scenarios. The world doesn’t operate solely because of our economies, you see? Many factors contribute to a nation’s demise, and I was just answering the question.
People like to turn a blind eye towards the real state of the economy, but then also like to turn around and offer their predictions about how our nation will continue as it has for the next how ever many years.
www.markswatson.com
The guy runs a great series of articles that used to be titled “The Coming Economic Depression” that he’s since renamed “The Political, Economic and Spiritual Review.” Read them, and you’ll see just how close our country is to economic collapse.
I don’t know about that. Things and people change. Never say always, right? 
I don’t think it’s that extreme. It wouldn’t take a majority, just a handful or two of the largest companies in the US. Think of what happened when Enron fell, and project what could happen if say three more companies fell in similar Enron type collapse.
Consider the economic change that has come over the US in the past 200, 100, 50 and 10 yrs. Based on that, is it really that improbable that the US could be economically downgraded into a third world country in 200 or even 100 yrs?
Yea, because another, more advanced form of government will never be invented, and war wouldn’t exist if all the countries of the world were democracies. :rolleyes: That’s a very optimistic vision.
Why does an economic collapse and subsequent political restructuring, even one rivalling or exceeding the great depression, mean the end of the United States?
If that’s the case, then you could argue that the United States ended in 1865 with the Civil War, since the Civil War reshaped the politcal landscape dramatically.
Yes, of course we’re going to face problems in the future, America isn’t guaranteed a free ride any more than any other country. But why does that mean the United States will cease to exist? Did France cease to exist on January 21, 1793, the day they chopped King Looey’s head off? Did Germany cease to exist on May 8, 1945, when an utterly defeated and smashed flat Germany unilaterally surrendered to the Allies? Did the Roman empire cease to exist on Sept 4, 476, when Romulus Augustulus was deposed by Odoacer? (Hint: May 29 1453 is the other significant date here).
Yes, some political entities do end. There’s no more Austria-Hungarian Empire. But Austria exists, Hungary exists. There’s no more Ottoman empire, but Turkey exists. There’s no more Soviet Union, but Russia still exists. So even if there is no nation-state called “The United States of America”, the people of America will still exist, we will still have some sort of government, we’ll still speak the same language.
As I said before, this seems to me to be a belief in American exceptionalism, that we aren’t a country like other countries, but our ups and downs are somehow completely different than the problems other countries have faced. Other countries have faced economic collapse, other countries have been defeated militarily, other countries have had revolutions, other countries have fallen into dictatorship, and mostly they didn’t “end”, they muddled through somehow. So why would we expect America to collapse like a soap bubble because we face some severe problem, when countries like Haiti still exist, despite facing problems 10 times worse?
A world union will form, then a world government. Eventually the world government will reorganize its voting blocks down to areas of comparable size and/or population; this will cause the US (and canada) to be divided in to single and multi-state regions comparable by some standard to your average european country. This will complete the removal the US government from the equation. Given a few generations, the citizenry will largely forget the previous borders, and will instead identify with their voting block, or set of nearby voting blocks (including formerly canadian and mexican ones), and/or the world as a whole.
Assuming we don’t suffer a war, plague, or ecological or unnatural event that largely eliminates the world population first, anyway. (Which would do the job of eliminating the US right along with it.)
It can’t really “end”. The Roman Empire “ended” quite a while ago, but last I checked, Rome is still where it always was. Just with more souvenirs and cheap-plastic-toy-peddling gypsies.
How about Troy?
-XT
And Babylon ain’t what it used be, neither. And Carthage and Tyre and Nineveh … (sigh) those were the days …
Yes, the US has distanced itself on a much faster pace than ever before. Only China, really, is keeping pace (actually, they do exceed in year-to-year growth). But, I would be more cautious of China actually keeping pace since their labor is nowhere near as advanced as the US, they lack infrastructure, and they’re not a democracy. Also, I would be very weary of China’s supposedly “floating exchange” rate (i.e., it’s not really). The possibility of the US to be downgraded to a third world economy, outside any cataclysmic event, is next to nil. I can totally see US not being a super-power in the near future, but it’s not like it will end it’s existence.
You dare rolleyes at me :rolleyes: ? While not to tout out my degree in poli sci (or econ for that matter), but we have studied nothing that works better than the representative democracy. I suppose we could all undergo some major evolution where communism works, and/or technological advances all allow us to become a nation of islands (thus disproving the proverb) – and you’re calling me an optimist? :rolleyes: