# How will we pay for the Syria quagmire? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2013, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-will-we-pay-for-the-syria-quagmire/667972 "2013-09-04T05:26:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-will-we-pay-for-the-syria-quagmire/667972/21 "2013-09-04T14:50:07Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Hey, it’s cheap! Lets bomb two countries! Don’t give us crazy Americans any ideas!! As for “boots on the ground”, as much as I am against this action, I do trust Obama to not put combat troops into the mess in Syria. I think this will, in fact, be a limited, targeted strike. And it will either do nothing, or possibly make things worse. If we start helping the rebels, that might shift the tide, or it might just cause more bloodshed while still leaving Asaad in power. He’s got the Russians helping him, and they are probably more motivated than we are to take sides. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-will-we-pay-for-the-syria-quagmire/667972/22 "2013-09-04T14:55:40Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Call me crazy, but I’d say fund it out of our Defense budget. I don’t know what you think this is going to cost, but as a poster upthread stated, how did we fund the ‘Libyan quagmire’? We didn’t seem to need any sort of special funding for that, and from all indications what we did in Libya is going to be a lot more than what we are planning in Syria, so I don’t see a problem. That’s probably because the costs of replacing the inventory fired off was added into the next year’s budget. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-will-we-pay-for-the-syria-quagmire/667972/23 "2013-09-04T15:02:39Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > That’s probably because the costs of replacing the inventory fired off was added into the next year’s budget. Even if it wasn’t we are talking peanuts here in comparison to the rest of the budget. Libya was hardly a dent in our budget and I don’t see anything remotely similar response wise between what we seem to be planning (assuming we do anything at all) in Syria and what we did in Libya. Anyone saying we’d do more in Syria than we did in Libya (not to mention Iraq or Afghanistan) is basically talking out their ass IMHO. Even leaving aside the fact that Obama is the Prez (and not Bush), there is no huge push for more substantial strikes, let along boots on the ground, and more importantly we can see what military assets we are actually moving into the region to gauge what we are planning…and it ain’t a hell of a lot. We are certainly not moving in large numbers of troops and logistics as we did prior to invading Afghanistan OR Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-will-we-pay-for-the-syria-quagmire/667972/24 "2013-09-04T15:06:18Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Exactly this. And, any money spent on extra pay, or to replace missiles, is spent in the US. > We aren’t bombing Syria with pallets of dollar bills- though that would be cost effective. > So it’s a jobs program as well as a dominance issue. You are committing the broken window fallacy. Destruction is not good just because it forces you to expend resources to replace the things you destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-will-we-pay-for-the-syria-quagmire/667972/25 "2013-09-04T18:11:51Z")
Man…this is surreal-Obama is like Lyndon Johnson in 1967 or so (Vietnam): “mebbe if uh bomb them a leetle more…they will see reason”. We are walking into a trap that will close on us, and sawllow up a few billion$$. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-will-we-pay-for-the-syria-quagmire/667972/26 "2013-09-04T19:31:57Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Nobody has even hit on the real issue here: once we bomb Syria, we are now a belligerent. That means we will be financially responsible for millions of refugees -that will flee our efforts to help them. We are already supplying $800 million in aid to the existing refugees-and with another 2 million, we will be on the hook for billions. But that is OK-we will just borrow from China. For a nation that won’t even pay the healthcare of its own wounded soldiers, taking on the burden of millions of Syrians is strange indeed. Well then just vote to raise some damn taxes and tell the rest of the GOP to do the same. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-will-we-pay-for-the-syria-quagmire/667972/27 "2013-09-04T19:32:09Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Man…this is surreal-Obama is like Lyndon Johnson in 1967 or so (Vietnam): “mebbe if uh bomb them a leetle more…they will see reason”. > We are walking into a trap that will close on us, and sawllow up a few billion$$. Little more? Have we bombed them at all. And the bombing would be to punish something they have already done, not to convince them of anything. LBJ also didn’t have the benefit of observing a real quagmire his predecessor got into. Or in words of one syllable - don’t worry, Cheney and Rummy aren’t near power, and Obama is a lot more skeptical than Shrub ever was. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-will-we-pay-for-the-syria-quagmire/667972/28 "2013-09-04T19:47:24Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Man…this is surreal-Obama is like Lyndon Johnson in 1967 or so (Vietnam): “mebbe if uh bomb them a leetle more…they will see reason”. > We are walking into a trap that will close on us, and sawllow up a few billion$$. This has got to be one of the stupidest points I’ve yet seen. We haven’t bombed them at all, yet. We aren’t planning to bomb them to make them see reason, we are planning to bomb them as a punitive measure for using chemical weapons, which are prohibited by international law (which, IIRC, Syria is also a signatory too). As to a few billion dollars, well, that sounds like a bargain compared to what Bush cost us…and it’s also a bargain from the standpoint of US policy, considering it will hurt Assad, slap his wrist AND set a precedence for actually standing by international law, all at minimal cost to the US. It won’t change the balance of power in the Syrian civil war (which we don’t seem to want to do, and I agree we should let it play out as it will) other than perhaps making Assad think twice before crossing the chemical weapons on his own civilians line again. Sounds like a win/win to me. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-will-we-pay-for-the-syria-quagmire/667972/29 "2013-09-04T20:06:14Z")
> [@XT](#): > > This has got to be one of the stupidest points I’ve yet seen. We haven’t bombed them at all, yet. We aren’t planning to bomb them to make them see reason, we are planning to bomb them as a punitive measure for using chemical weapons, which are prohibited by international law (which, IIRC, Syria is also a signatory too). Syria is not a signatory. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-will-we-pay-for-the-syria-quagmire/667972/30 "2013-09-04T20:07:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Syria is not a signatory. My bad then. Doesn’t invalidate the overall point though…even if they aren’t a signatory it doesn’t mean they can use chemical weapons with impunity. At least that’s how I understand the conventions, though obviously I’m no expert, nor have I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express lately. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-will-we-pay-for-the-syria-quagmire/667972/31 "2013-09-04T20:28:27Z")
> [@XT](#): > > My bad then. Doesn’t invalidate the overall point though…even if they aren’t a signatory it doesn’t mean they can use chemical weapons with impunity. At least that’s how I understand the conventions, though obviously I’m no expert, nor have I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express lately. They can do whatever they can get away with, and the US can do the same. There are no international police here, and the UNSC isn’t going to step in. However, there is not doubt that, to the extent international law exists, the US is in the wrong by initiating an unprovoked act of war w/o authority from the UNSC. So, we’re in the same boat with Syria on this, so to speak. ETA: That was speaking purely from the standpoint of “international law”, not morality. We are not in the same boat, morally. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-will-we-pay-for-the-syria-quagmire/667972/32 "2013-09-04T20:59:51Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] ETA: That was speaking purely from the standpoint of “international law”, not morality. We are not in the same boat, morally. [/QUOTE] Well, that kind of says something about ‘international law’ then, doesn’t it? 😛 Hard to believe though that ‘international law’ puts a country that would attack it’s own citizens with weapons of mass destruction on par with a country that would retaliate against said WMD users, but then international law is kind of an oxymoron in that it doesn’t seem to be much about law OR about being international. > [@](#): > > They can do whatever they can get away with, and the US can do the same. There are no international police here, and the UNSC isn’t going to step in. Hardly, since Russia would block any such move. But I fail to see how even with UNSC sanction this would become ‘legal’ in any meaningful sense. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-will-we-pay-for-the-syria-quagmire/667972/33 "2013-09-04T21:17:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > ETA: That was speaking purely from the standpoint of “international law”, not morality. We are not in the same boat, morally. You are right. You are actually _much worse_ – no nation on earth has killed as many innocent people in the last 50 years as the US of A. Start with four million Vietnamese and count UP from there. You may not like the sum total. Doesn’t change a thing. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-will-we-pay-for-the-syria-quagmire/667972/34 "2013-09-04T21:17:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > As for “boots on the ground”, as much as I am against this action, I do trust Obama to not put combat troops into the mess in Syria. I think this will, in fact, be a limited, targeted strike. And it will either do nothing, or possibly make things worse. Part of the goal is to deter future users of chemical weapons. So we won’t truly know whether it made things worse for millions of years, just like GWBush’s adventures in Iraq. I guess I could go out on a limb and say that the [Sack of Rome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Rome_%28455%29) represented a serious setback for the Roman Empire. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-will-we-pay-for-the-syria-quagmire/667972/35 "2013-09-04T21:39:08Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Part of the goal is to deter future users of chemical weapons. So we won’t truly know whether it made things worse for millions of years, just like GWBush’s adventures in Iraq… If – and ever – current Iraq raises itself from a failed state to something better, it certainly won’t take “millions of years.” But in the meantime we can certainly appraise that Bush’s invasion was a huge fuck-up at best as it made Iraq a “failed state.” Thus what happens in your time-frame will be due to Iraqi’s doing (unless they are invaded again) and nothing more. So yeah, I think we are fit to judge _right now_. Or else any and all military misadventure could never be criticized. In our lifetimes anyway…and that is, IMO, absurd. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-will-we-pay-for-the-syria-quagmire/667972/36 "2013-09-04T21:40:40Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Nobody has even hit on the real issue here: once we bomb Syria, we are now a belligerent. That means we will be financially responsible for millions of refugees -that will flee our efforts to help them. We are already supplying $800 million in aid to the existing refugees-and with another 2 million, we will be on the hook for billions. But that is OK-we will just borrow from China. For a nation that won’t even pay the healthcare of its own wounded soldiers, taking on the burden of millions of Syrians is strange indeed. Israel has bombed Syria at least twice within the past several years and hasn’t incurred such costs. What makes you think it will be different with us? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-will-we-pay-for-the-syria-quagmire/667972/37 "2013-09-04T22:00:06Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Israel has bombed Syria at least twice within the past several years and hasn’t incurred such costs. > > What makes you think it will be different with us? You are not Israel – nor do you know what agreement they may have had at the time. Assad knows this is the worst time ever to look weak; so he just might not be so inclined to be so benign…so to speak. But never mind me – after all, you know it _all_ in the MENA region. So, please skip the usual condescending response; or not. I won’t answer anyway. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-will-we-pay-for-the-syria-quagmire/667972/38 "2013-09-04T22:49:24Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > You are right. You are actually _much worse_ – no nation on earth has killed as many innocent people in the last 50 years as the US of A. Start with four million Vietnamese and count UP from there. You may not like the sum total. Doesn’t change a thing. If you want to start a debate about how many civilians died in the Vietnam War, please do so. In this thread I will simply say: 1. I am speaking only about this particular conflict-- Syria. 2. I don’t accept your 4M number for Vietnam. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-will-we-pay-for-the-syria-quagmire/667972/39 "2013-09-04T23:13:11Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > How will we pay for the Syria quagmire? By sending the bill to the “Arab countries.” ([Kerry: Arab countries offered to pay for invasion](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics-live/liveblog/the-houses-syria-hearing-live-updates/?id=e68f139f-e012-476c-876e-2467ba30e5e3)) Presumable Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Like with Gulf War I, which may even have turned a small profit. Of course there are other kinds of cost than financial, and one can but laugh at Kerry’s statement: _“That’s how dedicated they are at this.”_ Dedication is not paying for having it done by others. Dedication is doing it yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-will-we-pay-for-the-syria-quagmire/667972/40 "2013-09-04T23:16:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If you want to start a debate about how many civilians died in the Vietnam War, please do so. In this thread I will simply say: > > 1. I am speaking only about this particular conflict-- Syria. > 2. I don’t accept your 4M number for Vietnam. Isn’t the answer for “Country responsible for the most deaths of innocents in the 1963-2013 period” the People’s Republic of China? R.J. Rummel’s data may be out of date, and difficult to read anyway, but the following graphs seem to bear that out. [Table 1](http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/CHINA.TABIIA.1.GIF). [Table 2](http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/CHINA.TABIIA.2.GIF). His full site on this subject is [here](http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM). The [Necometrics site](http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm) seems to agree, though it is difficult to parse Mao’s murders within the '63 onward period. EDIT: The Necometrics link to the U.S. inflicted deaths from Vietnam may be found [here](http://necrometrics.com/20c1m.htm#Vietnam). It is considerably less than 4M, though 4.2 million people did lose their lives in the conflict. The various Communist forces were responsible for a lot of the killing too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-will-we-pay-for-the-syria-quagmire/667972.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-will-we-pay-for-the-syria-quagmire/667972.md?page=3)