# How "woke" are movies really? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** movies\ **Created:** [June 8, 2022, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-woke-are-movies-really/965849 "2022-06-08T00:11:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-woke-are-movies-really/965849/61 "2022-06-10T03:10:19Z")
Yes, I left out a word. By the 1940s a number of black entertainers were famous enough to be considered for musicals. So singers and dancers got spectacular musical sequences equal to those of white performers. Since musicals in that era didn’t use the music to drive the plot, but used the plot as an excuse for a series of music videos (sometimes excerpted for [soundies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soundies)), the numbers that featured black performers could be cut without any effect on the picture. These numbers carefully excluded white performers so southerners wouldn’t miss any of their time on screen. These pictures were essentially a genre of their own and had little to do with standard dramatic or comedic films, whose servant characters weren’t cut. (Of course, there were always some fuzzy boundaries.) ---
**Author:** ![actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e79b87/32.png) [@actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/actualliberalnotoneofthose)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-woke-are-movies-really/965849/62 "2022-06-10T10:19:51Z")
I’ve read claims other places online that movies are “woke” if any cast member is a different race than what is first expected, if any woman is cast for any other reason than being a “10” who is universally f-able to a avg straight white man, if anyone is lgbtqia+ without it being explicitly stated in whatever source material, and similar. Every movie could star a straight white man and a white supermodel as his love interest, and the people looking for “wokeness” under their beds could find something objectionable. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-woke-are-movies-really/965849/63 "2022-06-10T11:18:09Z")
> [@actualliberalnotoneofthose](#): > > I’ve read claims other places online that movies are “woke” if any cast member is a different race than what is first expected TV, not a movie, but you can see the same [thought](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer/965921/3) [processes](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer/965921/6) at work on this very board, never mind other places. Neither uses the word “woke” itself, but the thrust is the same. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-woke-are-movies-really/965849/64 "2022-06-10T12:17:40Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > TV, not a movie, but you can see the same [thought](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer/965921/3) [processes](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer/965921/6) at work on this very board, never mind other places. Neither uses the word “woke” itself, but the thrust is the same. It hasn’t got one damn thing to do with “woke”, it is _bad_ casting. I don’t care about the physical characteristics of casting _if it isn’t important to the character_. For instance, the recent, horrible Discworld Watch series. I didn’t care that Sybil was black. I didn’t care that Carcer was black. Neither of those mattered. But Cheery being more than 6 feet tall? I had a big problem with that. Even in comic adaptations where you have actual visual representations of characters I don’t care about unimportant race swaps. Tulip in _Preacher_ being black? No problem. But yes, I do think that having Death in _Sandman_ being anyone other than a very pale Goth is just shitty casting. And I don’t mean just a caucasian person, I mean someone painted up like a geisha. You can attempt to smear me as some right-wing racist as much you wish (you do that at the drop of a hat here anyway) but I know who I am outside of your simplistic jabs. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-woke-are-movies-really/965849/65 "2022-06-10T12:33:49Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > It hasn’t got one damn thing to do with “woke” > [@The Sandman trailer - upd, now on Netflix](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/3): > > making Death […] black seems almost deliberately provocative. Sure, whatever you say… > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > having Death in _Sandman_ being anyone other than a very pale Goth is just shitty casting …and your opinion on appropriate casting matters more than Neil Gaiman’s because…? > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > I don’t care about the physical characteristics of casting _if it isn’t important to the character_ . How is being _pale_ important to Death’s character? ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-woke-are-movies-really/965849/66 "2022-06-10T12:35:29Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > How is being _pale_ important to Death’s character? Because the paleness is a play on Death as the psychopomp of the skeletal Grim Reaper. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-woke-are-movies-really/965849/67 "2022-06-10T12:35:58Z")
I don’t have a horse in this football match, never having read a Sandman comic, but the association between death and a sun-bleached human skull is not a new concept. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-woke-are-movies-really/965849/68 "2022-06-10T12:38:27Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Because the paleness is a play on Death as the psychopomp of the skeletal Grim Reaper. But Gaiman’s Death is already a deliberate subversion of most of the characteristics of the traditional Grim Reaper -young, female, warm and kind. Making her not pale is just a step further in that trend. It’s therefore a _better_ casting than leaving her pale. Also, I don’t think you’re using psychopomp correctly. _Death_ is a psychopomp regardless. Gaiman is a huge fan of reworking his earlier stuff. This is completely on-brand for him. > [@Alessan](#): > > the association between death and a sun-bleached human skull is not a new concept. Death in _The Sandman_ is in no way a sun-bleached human skull. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-woke-are-movies-really/965849/69 "2022-06-10T12:41:30Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I don’t have a horse in this football match, never having read a Sandman comic, but the association between death and a sun-bleached human skull is not a new concept. [This](https://www.google.com/search?q=Gaiman+death&client=firefox-b-1-m&channel=ts&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjvqu-886L4AhUFKkQIHa9TCGoQ_AUIBigB&biw=432&bih=782) is what Death looks like in the comics. Beyond merely “a white person”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-woke-are-movies-really/965849/70 "2022-06-10T12:44:10Z")
BTW, this is what Neil, Himself [has to say](https://www.thewrap.com/the-sandman-casting-desire-death-nonbinary-black-neil-gaiman-defends/) about the casting: “I give zero fucks about people who don’t understand/ haven’t read Sandman whining about a non-binary Desire or that Death isn’t white enough.” and "Someone who could speak the truth to Dream, on the one hand, but **also be the person you’d want to meet when your life was done on the other**. And then we saw Kirby Howell-Baptiste’s (she/her) audition and we knew we had our Death.” He clearly cares more about character than colour. And it’s _his_ damn character, so he _is_ right (Death of the Author be damned) emphasis mine ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-woke-are-movies-really/965849/71 "2022-06-10T12:52:46Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > He clearly cares more about character than colour. And it’s _his_ damn character, so he _is_ right So do you think that way about all decisions made by creators of characters? For instance, do you think that Greedo shot first and said “Maclunkey” as he died? Is the opinion/interpretation of the content creator the only one that matters and that of the content consumer doesn’t? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-woke-are-movies-really/965849/72 "2022-06-10T12:56:42Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > So do you think that way about all decisions made by creators of characters? Yes > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > For instance, do you think that Greedo shot first Depends on which version I’m watching. But nowadays, yes, he did. That’s what the historical records show. Although this is a terrible analogy, because Gaiman is _NOT_ recalling all copies of the comic and issuing new ones with a PoC Death rendering the original hard to get. The comics are still in print, last I checked. The TV show is a _new_ thing. That’s a great thing. > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Is the opinion/interpretation of the content creator the only one that matters and that of the content consumer doesn’t? It’s not the _only_ thing that matters, but it is overwhelmingly _the most important_ thing. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-woke-are-movies-really/965849/73 "2022-06-10T13:05:23Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The TV show is a _new_ thing. That’s a great thing. You say that without having seen it. Maybe it will be horrible (irrespective of the casting). _Good Omens_ was pretty good, but _American Gods_ was godawful. So I’m not going to assume that a Gaiman adaptation is going to be good, even if Gaiman is attached to it. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-woke-are-movies-really/965849/74 "2022-06-10T13:06:40Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > But yeah, I totally agree, it’s pretty much a myth and just a bunch of dudes engaging in a circle jerk. Pretty much. What maybe exacerbates it is that movie producers, in an effort to LOOK progressive, will sometimes jam “not a straight white male” or “look, a gay couple!” characters into the mix in a way that isn’t well integrated into the story and is often astoundingly, obviously a case of “look at us we’re ALLIES!!!1!” They are rarely actual glimpses of lives led by people who don’t look like Ryan Reynolds. Well made movies that present such honest stories, like “Moonlight,” don’t get called “woke” because, well, they’re not. “Moonlight” was just _about_ a gay black kid. A normal woke Hollywood movie would have told a story about a Ryan Reynolds type while shoehorning in a gay black kid as a supporting character Reynolds could save. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-woke-are-movies-really/965849/75 "2022-06-10T13:08:21Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > You say that without having seen it. I don’t have to see it to consider its mere existence a great thing. I’m not saying the thing itself is a work of art for the ages, that’s very much up in the air. I’m saying the fact that multiple interpretations across various media exist, and that the work is evolving and updating, is a great thing in-and-of-itself. > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > _American Gods_ was godawful My mileage varied. **ETA:** I think I’m only going to continue discussion about _The Sandman_, specifically, in its own thread, I feel talking about a TV show that has its own thread here will get a bit hijack-y ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-woke-are-movies-really/965849/76 "2022-06-10T13:47:19Z")
Well, as a start, there seems to be a lot more people of not conventional beauty in commercials than ever before. Like the lady who’s cursed to always wearing glasses. It’s like a Twilight Zone episode: she takes off her glasses, and another pair materializes. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-woke-are-movies-really/965849/77 "2022-06-10T14:11:25Z")
> [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](#): > > Well, as a start, there seems to be a lot more people of not conventional beauty in commercials than ever before. Like the lady who’s cursed to always wearing glasses. Haven’t seen it, but glasses have been a pretty standard fetish for a very long time, with the trope that the nerdy girl takes off her glasses and lets down her ponytail, and is now ready to be a runway model. Was the girl in the commercial actually unattractive, or did she just wear glasses? ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-woke-are-movies-really/965849/78 "2022-06-10T14:15:17Z")
You be the judge: [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3pzu5Uwof8) ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-woke-are-movies-really/965849/79 "2022-06-10T14:45:50Z")
She’s a bit older, so that’s a slight deviation from the perfect body, but she’s an attractive older woman. I know little about thyroid eye disease, but such conditions typically are more common in older folk, so she’s probably representative of a potential customer for this drug. Perfect teeth, no visible scars or birthmarks, good hair, and certainly wearing makeup. I don’t have sound, so I can’t comment on her voice, but I assume she had a presentable voice, and not a tinny or whiny voice. Everyone else in the commercial were also fairly attractive people. And, like I said, I don’t tune into a show or watch a movie to see people that I see in real life, and as a white male, I can identify with Chris Hemsworth, Chris Evans, or Chris Pratt just fine. The lack of representation of ordinary people doesn’t offend me, and I find it much more meaningful to represent minority and marginalized people than I would in seeing someone that _actually_ looks like me in a starring role. OTOH, the part that I was a bit less facetious about is the fact that when less than perfect bodies are represented, there is something wrong with that person. Chris Hemsworth putting on the fat suit to show that he is now a loser I saw as a bit of fat shaming. I wasn’t _offended_, but it did take me out of it for a bit. Recently, the Late Show with Stephen Colbert had an intro segment in response to some politician/pundit claiming that heterosexuality will be extinct soon, where they featured “[The last straight man](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0TST4u2C0A)” in a wildlife documentary format. Now, that guy actually did look quite a bit like me (I even own that flannel), as he fumbled about his life and ate cold chicken wings from a plate balanced on his protruding abdomen(and it looks like he still had better teeth). Still not _offended_, but I didn’t find that segment very amusing. Certainly not a hill I’m looking to die on here, and there is a long way that Hollywood and other entertainment venues need to go to adequately represent the people of our country and our world before it makes any sense for a white straight cis-male like me needs to start complaining about “representation”, but I am saying it’s a bit uncool to use unattractive people for laughs. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-woke-are-movies-really/965849/80 "2022-06-10T19:41:01Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > And it’s _his_ damn character, so he _is_ right (Death of the Author be damned) Since it’s his character, it _is_ Death of the Author! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-woke-are-movies-really/965849.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-woke-are-movies-really/965849.md?page=5)