# How Would A Bush Critical Repub Do in the General Election? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 5, 2007, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-a-bush-critical-repub-do-in-the-general-election/406851 "2007-06-05T15:45:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-a-bush-critical-repub-do-in-the-general-election/406851/1 "2007-06-05T15:45:58Z")
Let’s say there was a Republican Candidate who was very critical of Bush’s handling of the Iraq war, wire tapping, Plame, etc. On the other hand, he or she towed the party line on things like taxation, trade, gay marraige, abortion, religion, environment, etc. (I know these can have gray areas within the party as well, but I hope youunderstand the point.) Ignoring for a moment the idea that this person could probably never win the Republican nomination, how would this candidate do in a general election against a Democratic opponent? (I am not considering the situation where this candidate runs as a third party candidate, but as THE Republican Candidate). ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-a-bush-critical-repub-do-in-the-general-election/406851/2 "2007-06-05T16:33:58Z")
I think poorly. The Republican base, those 30% or so that still like Bush, aren’t going to cotton to someone that shakes their beliefs in the Iraq war. These people think that 9/11 has conferred upon America the status of perpetual victimhood and that any and all actions the US takes now and forever in the name of the War on Terror are completely justified and that to even question them on any matter relating to terror means that you are an unAmerican pinko commie fag. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-a-bush-critical-repub-do-in-the-general-election/406851/3 "2007-06-05T17:31:06Z")
Sounds like you are talking about [Chuck Hagel](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=404561&highlight=chuck). I personally think he could do quite well, but lots of other people think not. He does have a big problem with name recognition. Just look at how Joe Biden is doing, and he probably has better name recognition. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-a-bush-critical-repub-do-in-the-general-election/406851/4 "2007-06-05T17:34:31Z")
I think that the Republican “troops” would end up rallying around such a candidate, the same way they’ve rallied around Bush despite the things that many on that side saw very wrong with his candidacy. Free Republic is a bastion of pro-Bush sentiment right now. But in 2000, they were a bastion of anti-Bush sentiment, and the owner was actively promoting an anti-Bush agenda. But Bush is President, so they rallied. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-a-bush-critical-repub-do-in-the-general-election/406851/5 "2007-06-05T17:46:59Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Sounds like you are talking about [Chuck Hagel](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=404561&highlight=chuck). [/QUOTE] Or Ron Paul. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-a-bush-critical-repub-do-in-the-general-election/406851/6 "2007-06-05T17:58:50Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Or Ron Paul. [/QUOTE] He doesn’t toe the party line, per the OP, though. He’s really a Libertarian who figured he could only get elected as part of a major party. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-a-bush-critical-repub-do-in-the-general-election/406851/7 "2007-06-05T20:27:26Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem] I think poorly. The Republican base, those 30% or so that still like Bush, aren’t going to cotton to someone that shakes their beliefs in the Iraq war. These people think that 9/11 has conferred upon America the status of perpetual victimhood and that any and all actions the US takes now and forever in the name of the War on Terror are completely justified and that to even question them on any matter relating to terror means that you are an unAmerican pinko commie fag. [/QUOTE] See, I don’t know if I agree with this argument. What are these 30% who still love Bush at this point going to do… vote Democrat? They’ll simply turn out in lower numbers, not vote for the opposing candidate; instead, I think for every one a candidate that he would lose from the base by not voting, he’ll grab one from the center who would have voted either third party or for the Democratic candidate which. Either way, since the Democratic candidate wouldn’t support Bush either, I don’t even think that would really come up as a pooint in the campaign. OTOH, by still supporting the same general platforms of the Republican party, I don’t think too much of the base will be overly upset enough for them to be lost. I think the answer comes down to who the Democrats nominate. For instance, IME the same people who love Bush despise Clinton; thus, I’d expect a Republican who doesn’t necessarily appeal to the base may get a big boost there from the “anyone but Hillary” mentality and thus a candidate like that would fair well (while a "pro-Bush candidate may not). A candidate like Edwards likely wouldn’t ignite nearly the same fire under the Republican base, and I think someone like him would fair a better chance against such a candidate. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-a-bush-critical-repub-do-in-the-general-election/406851/8 "2007-06-05T21:15:24Z")
Frankly I think that’s the only way a Republican candidate has any chance in hell of winning the next election. Denounce the Bush way of doing things and promise a new and improved Republican party that wants to get back to business. You run your whole campaign defending the Bush way of doing things you might as well raise the white flag now. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-a-bush-critical-repub-do-in-the-general-election/406851/9 "2007-06-05T21:30:25Z")
[QUOTE=Hampshire] Frankly I think that’s the only way a Republican candidate has any chance in hell of winning the next election. Denounce the Bush way of doing things and promise a new and improved Republican party that wants to get back to business. [/QUOTE] But without giving up commitment to the “War on Terror” – because the perception that they’re stronger on national security than the Dems are is the best electoral advantage the Pubs have got at the moment. Which leaves Pub candidates in a sticky quandary, doesn’t it? They have to appear “strong on terror” in some other way than the Bush Admin has already tried. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-a-bush-critical-repub-do-in-the-general-election/406851/10 "2007-06-05T23:43:26Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] He doesn’t toe the party line, [/QUOTE] Thanks for not spelling that “tow”. So few know that anymore that it’s worth appreciating. The GOP nominee is going to \*have \* to be anti-Bush, implicitly, but in terms of what we do _next_, not whose fault it is. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-a-bush-critical-repub-do-in-the-general-election/406851/11 "2007-06-06T21:41:38Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Thanks for not spelling that “tow”. So few know that anymore that it’s worth appreciating. [/QUOTE] I must confess that I learned that by posting it incorrectly here a few years ago, and being corrected by someone. But I’ve been a reformed toer ever since! Back to the OP… Looks like we might find out what it’s like to have all the GOP candidates critical of Bush: > [@](#): > > [GOP presidential candidates hammer Bush during debate](http://www.mercurynews.com/search/ci_6072006) > > MANCHESTER, N.H. - President Bush drew startling criticism Tuesday night from Republican White House hopefuls unhappy with his handling of the Iraq war, his diplomatic style and his approach to immigration. > > \ > > Much of the debate focused on Iraq. Of course, it remains to be seen if they’ll actually propose to do anything differently (other than “manage things better”). It’s interesting to note that McCain admitted to not having read the NIE before he voted for the Iraq AUMF. I expect this is going to come up in the Democratic debate as it does not appear Hillary did either. (She hasn’t admitted she didn’t read it, but she dances around that issue like Ginger Rogers.) I believe one of the Dems (Levin?) claims that only 5 Democratic Senators read the actual report, rather than relying on summaries. Fascinating article on Hillary and the War in last Sunday’s NYT Magazine. [Link](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/29/magazine/03Hillary-t.html?ex=1181275200&en=a8996ea718e8c043&ei=5070). Get it now, as I don’t think they archive the whole article for very long (at least not for free). If I were Obama, I’d bring it up at the next debate, assuming it’s not one of the questions they are asked. I’d ask both Hillary and Edwards (and Biden, too, but he’s small potatoes at this point). ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-a-bush-critical-repub-do-in-the-general-election/406851/12 "2007-06-07T00:21:11Z")
The document itself was kept in a guarded room, and apparently very few Senators of either party made the effort to go beyond staff summaries. Not that it would have made much difference anyway, of course. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-a-bush-critical-repub-do-in-the-general-election/406851/13 "2007-06-07T00:59:53Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] The document itself was kept in a guarded room . . . [/QUOTE] 😕 Cite? I’ve never heard of any piece of proposed legislation being kept in a guarded room. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-a-bush-critical-repub-do-in-the-general-election/406851/14 "2007-06-07T01:13:38Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] 😕 Cite? I’ve never heard of any piece of proposed legislation being kept in a guarded room. [/QUOTE] He must be talking about the NIE, not the legislation. It was only readable under security, as it’s not something that can be just handed out to Senators without clearance. At any rate, when we’re talking about taking the nation to war I think it’s incumbent on our legislators to read the supporting evidence fully. But I don’t think it’s accurate to say it wouldn’t have made any difference if they had read it. It might not have made any difference for McCain, but it probably would have for some of the Dems. Read the article I linked to. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-a-bush-critical-repub-do-in-the-general-election/406851/15 "2007-06-07T01:32:46Z")
Let me add… why do I think it might have a made a difference in the vote? Your former Senator, **BG** , said it was one reason he voted no: > [@](#): > > The question of whether Clinton took the time to read the N.I.E. report is critically important. Indeed, one of Clinton’s Democratic colleagues, Bob Graham, the Florida senator who was then the chairman of the intelligence committee, said he voted against the resolution on the war, in part, because he had read the complete N.I.E. report. Graham said he found that it did not persuade him that Iraq possessed W.M.D. As a result, he listened to Bush’s claims more skeptically. “I was able to apply caveat emptor,” Graham, who has since left the Senate, observed in 2005. He added regretfully, “Most of my colleagues could not.” > > On Tuesday, Oct. 8, 2002, Senate Democrats, including Clinton, held a caucus over lunch on the second floor of the Capitol. There, Graham says he “forcefully” urged his colleagues to read the complete 90-page N.I.E. before casting such a monumental vote Of course, it would have helped if he had urged them much earlier because that was only days before the vote took place. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-a-bush-critical-repub-do-in-the-general-election/406851/16 "2007-06-07T02:17:32Z")
Nothing is so predictable in a debacle but the sprouting of fingers pointing at everyone but the pointer. Graham’s version of truth may be factually accurate, maybe not - but it certainly didn’t get publicity at the time, it didn’t make any difference at the time, and at best it makes him look utterly ineffectual, instead of malevolent or foolish. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-a-bush-critical-repub-do-in-the-general-election/406851/17 "2007-06-07T02:25:40Z")
I think we will find out. Most of the present candidates are very critical of GW’s handling of the war. Few of them, if any, criticize the war itself and all except Giuliani pretty much toe the line on all the other things. If a Republican is elected from among this group plus Fred Thompson I think all that will happen is they will try to do the same thing GW is doing only better. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-a-bush-critical-repub-do-in-the-general-election/406851/18 "2007-06-07T02:52:30Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Nothing is so predictable in a debacle but the sprouting of fingers pointing at everyone but the pointer. Graham’s version of truth may be factually accurate, maybe not - but it certainly didn’t get publicity at the time, it didn’t make any difference at the time, and at best it makes him look utterly ineffectual, instead of malevolent or foolish. [/QUOTE] I won’t argue with that. To be clear, I don’t think it would have changed whether the AUMF passed or not-- I think they would have needed every Democrat in the Senate to vote against, and even then it might have come down to a tie. Lieberman was a solid “yes” vote and probably a few other conservative Dems, too. But the point I am trying to make is whether Barack Obama should be reminding us of this in the next debate. Get HRC and Edwards on the record… _Did you or did not read the full NIE before voting to authorize force? Yes or no._ Anyway, I’ll let you have the last word, and we’ll see how this plays out. This thread is supposed to be about the GOP anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-a-bush-critical-repub-do-in-the-general-election/406851/19 "2007-06-07T03:36:04Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Sounds like you are talking about [Chuck Hagel](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=404561&highlight=chuck). [/QUOTE] Or Tom Tancredo. He really slammed Bush in the debate, finally declaring he would [ban Bush from visiting the White House](http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/tancredo-says-immigration-bill-could-destroy-gop-2007-06-06.html): > [@](#): > > At the debate, when asked what role Bush would play in his administration, Tancredo said he would tell the current president not to “darken the doorstep of the White House.” ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-a-bush-critical-repub-do-in-the-general-election/406851/20 "2007-06-07T19:31:22Z")
This is more understandable when you know that Tancredo may be quoting Karl Rove, who according to _The New Republic_ got into a shouting match with Tancredo during the 2004 campaign. Rove believed that Tancredo’s strong criticism of the Bush Administration’s immigration policy might hurt the President politically, and allegedly said that Tancredo should “never darken the doorstep of the White House” again.