# How would an anarchist society avoid recreating government? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2012, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-an-anarchist-society-avoid-recreating-government/613122 "2012-02-17T10:42:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-an-anarchist-society-avoid-recreating-government/613122/61 "2012-02-18T11:39:14Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > No, for the reasons I outlined. So you’re contending that there have never been citizen’s militias or citizen’s tribunals? Do the French and Spanish know? > [@](#): > > You can’t learn to be a judge on your coffee break. And if these are full time judges and full time militiamen then they are no more citizen’s courts and citizen militia than the courts and police forces of any western democracy. You keep using that word “full time” like it was something _I_ said. > [@](#): > > Can you please give me an example of a volounteer organisation where people volounteer to be the overseeing engineer on major roadway construction? Sure (not specifially “major roadway contruction” [but on that scale.](http://www.vpwa.org/how-to-volunteer/volunteerinternship-opportunities/architecture-and-engineering-internship). That’s not the only organization of its kind, either. Look, I get your larger point - there’s a point at which all that organization is enforcing its own organizational will rather than the will of society as a whole. Anarchism hopes to put enough checks and balances in place there to prevent that from happening. So if you choose to view that as just another kind of democracy like any other, that’s not wholly inaccurate, and I’m OK with that. I’m also ok with other flavours of anarchism that are more in line with what you are prescribing as true anarchism, but they’re not my ideal. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-an-anarchist-society-avoid-recreating-government/613122/62 "2012-02-18T11:42:29Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > First off, can you provide evidence that anybody but you considers a society anarchist when it has a full-time professional bureaucracy, full-time professional police force, full-time professional politicians and full-time professional judges, all enforcing laws upon people by means of coercion and threat of violence? Because that doesn’t meet any standard of Anarchism that i have ever seen. I don’t have to cite anyone else. That’s the wonder of anarchism. > [@](#): > > And secondly, in what sense does the system you describe lack a hierarchical and entrenched rulership class any more than the USA? There are a class of people who make laws, a class of people who adjudicate those laws, a class that enforces them and so forth. I don’t see anything about a class of people making laws ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-an-anarchist-society-avoid-recreating-government/613122/63 "2012-02-18T11:46:13Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Anarchism depends on democracy, I would think it’s perfectly possible to have both. Indeed, but when that democracy has a full-time professional bureaucracy, full-time professional police force, full-time professional politicians and full-time professional judges, all enforcing laws upon people by means of coercion and threat of violence it is no kind of Anarchism at all. > [@](#): > > Once again, I never said anything had to be full-time. 😕 You expect there to be career public officials such as Judges, but they won’t be full time. What are you suggesting here, that people learn to be judges and neurosurgeons, but they work 4 hours a day as dustmen? At this stage you really need to explain what you are proposing, because I thought that we had already settled that they would be career public officials. > [@](#): > > I [mentioned capitalism], and you replied - or what do you think "a fundamentally undemocratic and hierarchical economic structure embedded in an otherwise (supposedly) democratic political one " was? Well if you are claiming that you mentioned cpaitalism, provide apost number so we can all see where you mentioned it. Because I am calling bullshit on this one. You never mentioned capitalism at all. > [@](#): > > No, I didn’t [say that all economic action is both political and hierarchical. Why would you even bother to deny this when it is so easy to demonstrate that you are using dishonest tactics? > [@MrDibble](#): > > It also embeds the principle that **all economic action is overtly political action** , and hence \*\*a fundamentally undemocratic and hierarchical economic structure \*\*embedded in an otherwise (supposedly) democratic political one makes a mockery of any claims to democracy from the latter. I honestly don’t know what you hope to gain by making such claims. Everyone can see where you said that all economic action is both political and hierarchical. If you want to clarify, then clarify. But don’t tyr to tell us that you never said such a thing. > [@](#): > > Possibly you want to re-read what you quoted? I said all economic activity is political, I didn’t say it was all hierarchical. > [@MrDibble](#): > > It also embeds the principle that **all economic action is overtly political action** , and hence \*\*a fundamentally undemocratic and hierarchical economic structure \*\*embedded in an otherwise (supposedly) democratic political one makes a mockery of any claims to democracy from the latter. Nuff said. If you are going to continue to utilise such dishonest tactics the I honestly have no further interest in engaging you, since it is clearly futile. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-an-anarchist-society-avoid-recreating-government/613122/64 "2012-02-18T12:00:41Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > So you’re contending that there have never been citizen’s militias or citizen’s tribunals? Do the French and Spanish know? There are things call that, but what you haven’;t shown is how something called a citizen’s court with career judges and a militia with career soldiers is any different to what any western democracy already has. Call it a citizen’s court, call it a kangaroo court. Call it whatever you like, but explain how it differs from what already exists. > [@](#): > > You keep using that word “full time” like it was something _I_ said. Then explain how someone can be a career public officials and not a full time public official. Once again, when you say that someone is a career judge, it’s not our fault if we assume that you are using that term in the normal sense of a full time judge who has devoted their working life to that position. You seem to be implying that someone will be a career judge in their coffee break. > [@](#): > > Sure (not specifially “major roadway contruction” [but on that scale.](http://www.vpwa.org/how-to-volunteer/volunteerinternship-opportunities/architecture-and-engineering-internship). That’s not the only organization of its kind, either. It’s not even a single organisation. That organisation lists projects such as “Schools, Sanitary Facility, etc”. That’s not even remotely on the same scale as major roadway construction. That’s the sort of project that engineering \*students \*get given for work experience. It’s not even remotely comparable to overseeing major roadway construction Care to try again? > [@](#): > > Look, I get your larger point - there’s a point at which all that organization is enforcing its own organizational will rather than the will of society as a whole. That isn’t my point. My point is that when you have a career professional bureaucracy, a career professional police force, career professional politicians and career professional judges, all enforcing laws upon people by means of coercion and threat of violence then you don’t have anything that could be remotely be considered to meet any standard of Anarchism that I have ever seen or anything that the average person would consider anarachism. You have a governed state regulated by a multi-layered bureaucracy and legal system. The very antithesis of Anarchism. > [@](#): > > I don’t have to cite anyone else. That’s the wonder of anarchism. IOW it’s a Tower of Babel situation, where you use the word in a way that nobody else in the entire world uses it to describe a system that nobody else int he entire world would consider to be remotely like anarchism. That’s the final straw. Combined with you dishonest tactics it is quite clear that you are just wasting my time and have no interest in discussing this subject in good faith. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-an-anarchist-society-avoid-recreating-government/613122/65 "2012-02-18T12:05:51Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > I’m not being coy. I gave you a reference to a book which names and describes the tribes. So you claim. I don’t believe it does any such thing. > [@](#): > > I would look them up for you but my copy is several thousand kilometres away, and for some reason when I originally read it I didn’t think to memorize such details in anticipation of your question. So you can’t provide any evidence for your claim. That’s all you needed to say. Now we can dismiss it _pro tem_. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-an-anarchist-society-avoid-recreating-government/613122/66 "2012-02-18T12:11:31Z")
> [@grude](#): > > I don’t have a copy of your book to check but reading other anarchist references online it appears what is being referred to is social pressure and ostracism for infractions. So there is a dispute in a HG tribe between two members, they will both feel heavy pressure to resolve it from family and community, they may seek the aid of elders or wise mediators. Should they not resolve the conflict but escalate it or do things which go against tribe norms they will be ostracized socially to the point they will not be able to participate in society. They also will know how difficult or impossible it is to just jump up and go join another tribe, so they have the choice of bowing the community pressure or leaving and living on their own(very dangerous). Never mind ostracisation, the punishments included mutilation, ritual combat, branding and banishment. If Cohen says that HGs never engaged in such punishments then that is easily refuted using online sources. Does he make such a claim? I can’t see how a law system, overseen by elders, enforced in such a manner, and regulating property ownership, social role, sexual behaviour and land utilisation can held to be anarchic. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-an-anarchist-society-avoid-recreating-government/613122/67 "2012-02-18T13:36:47Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Well if you are claiming that you mentioned cpaitalism, provide apost number so we can all see where you mentioned it. Because I am calling bullshit on this one. You never mentioned capitalism at all. Of course I did. Just because I didn’t mention it _by name_ doesn’t mean I didn’t mention it. > [@](#): > > Why would you even bother to deny this when it is so easy to demonstrate that you are using dishonest tactics? > > I honestly don’t know what you hope to gain by making such claims. Everyone can see where you said that all economic action is both political and hierarchical. If you want to clarify, then clarify. But don’t tyr to tell us that you never said such a thing. > > Nuff said. > > If you are going to continue to utilise such dishonest tactics the I honestly have no further interest in engaging you, since it is clearly futile. So, that’s “Can’t read”, then? Once again: I said “All economic action is political” AND THEN I said “a fundamentally undemocratic and hierarchical economic structure” but at no point did the word “all” qualify the latter. To repeat: I said all economic actions are political , I said capitalism is embedded in Western democracy, but I never said all economic actions are capitalism, so the latter statement isn’t linked to the former the way you have linked it. And yes, anyone can read what I wrote and see that. Jeepers, man, you’re doing that “Argument by extreme aggression” thing again, that gets you all het up (need I mention 2-foot jumps?). Possibly take a breather? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-an-anarchist-society-avoid-recreating-government/613122/68 "2012-02-18T13:39:52Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > IOW it’s a Tower of Babel situation, where you use the word in a way that nobody else in the entire world uses it to describe a system that nobody else int he entire world would consider to be remotely like anarchism. No, son, it’s a joke (based on the fact that if you ask any two anarchists, you’ll get three definitions of anarchism.) Even the Wiki article acknowledges how many different interpretations of it there are. We’re nothing if not inveterate splitters. > [@](#): > > That’s the final straw. Combined with you dishonest tactics it is quite clear that you are just wasting my time and have no interest in discussing this subject in good faith. Your misreading of one sentence does not make me dishonest. But whatever floats your boat. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-an-anarchist-society-avoid-recreating-government/613122/69 "2012-02-19T03:35:26Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > That’s not what “direct democracy” means, nor does anarchism preclude having a constitution nor a Bill of Rights. Those are **laws.** How is anarchism anarchism if it does not preclude having laws?! ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-an-anarchist-society-avoid-recreating-government/613122/70 "2012-02-19T08:41:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Those are **laws.** How is anarchism anarchism if it does not preclude having laws?! Perhaps you’re confusing anarchism with anarchy? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-an-anarchist-society-avoid-recreating-government/613122/71 "2012-02-19T16:33:39Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Perhaps you’re confusing anarchism with anarchy? How is anarchism anarchism if anarchy is not its goal?! ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-an-anarchist-society-avoid-recreating-government/613122/72 "2012-02-19T17:05:47Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > The stateless character of preagricultural, “primitive communist” societies was first explored in detail by Engels in _The Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State_, to which I suppose I could refer you as a starting point. And Engels was qualified to comment on the matter how? ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-an-anarchist-society-avoid-recreating-government/613122/73 "2012-02-19T17:44:25Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > And Engels was qualified to comment on the matter how? In the same way any other social and political scientist was: from researching the available historical and anthropological evidence. Why, did you think he made his pronouncements after consulting his crystal ball? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-an-anarchist-society-avoid-recreating-government/613122/74 "2012-02-19T18:02:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > How is anarchism anarchism if anarchy is not its goal?! Because the word “anarchy” has a generally understood meaning that isn’t consistent with what anarchism means to achieve. Anarchism hopes to achieve a society with no _rulers_ (the root meaning of anarchy) not no _rules_ (the modern meaning of anarchy) But I’m sure you can look up the difference. If you didn’t know that already. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-an-anarchist-society-avoid-recreating-government/613122/75 "2012-02-19T18:28:47Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > In the same way any other social and political scientist was: from researching the available historical and anthropological evidence. Why, did you think he made his pronouncements after consulting his crystal ball? I’m not sure he used a crystal ball, but did he in fact use any actualy research of evidence related to hunter-gatherer societies? How much time did Engels spend outside of comfortable accomodations in Germany? Just saying “Engels said so” isn’t a super convincing position, I guess is what I’m saying. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-an-anarchist-society-avoid-recreating-government/613122/76 "2012-02-19T19:05:22Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Because the word “anarchy” has a generally understood meaning that isn’t consistent with what anarchism means to achieve. Anarchism hopes to achieve a society with no _rulers_ (the root meaning of anarchy) not no _rules_ (the modern meaning of anarchy) > > But I’m sure you can look up the difference. If you didn’t know that already. I didn’t know this difference, which is pretty important and not at all obvious. Thanks for clarifying. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-an-anarchist-society-avoid-recreating-government/613122/77 "2012-02-19T20:01:27Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I’m not sure he used a crystal ball, but did he in fact use any actualy research of evidence related to hunter-gatherer societies? Of course; why wouldn’t he have? As with any other social scientist, the factual claims made in his scholarly writings are sourced. He may not have done field work himself, though that’s hardly unusual. > [@](#): > > How much time did Engels spend outside of comfortable accomodations in Germany? Most of his adult life. > [@](#): > > Just saying “Engels said so” isn’t a super convincing position, I guess is what I’m saying. I don’t think it’s a convincing position either, but it’s not one I’ve advanced in this thread. Providing a citation is not the same as _argumentum ad verecundiam_. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-an-anarchist-society-avoid-recreating-government/613122/78 "2012-02-19T21:18:17Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Because the word “anarchy” has a generally understood meaning that isn’t consistent with what anarchism means to achieve. Anarchism hopes to achieve a society with no _rulers_ (the root meaning of anarchy) not no _rules_ (the modern meaning of anarchy) > > But I’m sure you can look up the difference. If you didn’t know that already. What’s to look up? It’s a false distinction. No rulers = no rules = anarchy = Somalia, not Libertopia or Revolutionary Spain or some shit. (The [Spanish Revolutionaries,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Revolution) had they managed to avoid getting crushed by the Republic and Franco in turn, would have found it necessary at some point to betray their anarcho-syndicalist principles and form a government (though they might give it a different and dishonest name) to keep the system going; otherwise, Somalia.) ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-an-anarchist-society-avoid-recreating-government/613122/79 "2012-02-19T22:27:50Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > I think the issue with the question posed by the OP is that it’s basically a True Scotsman argument on either side. Personally, even though I consider my ideal to be borderline anarchic, I think true anarchy is sort of a singularity that, if it can be achieved at all, can only be achieved instantaneously and eventually resorts back to some form of extremely limited government. > … I agree that it’s a True Scotsman type argument. The moment that you have a “community consensus” decision that is not unanimous, you have government. I believe that there have been very few, if any, real societies that have had no government structures. Certainly, there have been very libertarian societies, but even in those, if you just go around raping and pillaging all day then SOMETHING is going to be done about you even if there is no formal “Criminal Code” or institutionalized police forces or jails. You don’t NEED to have a farcical aquatic ceremony to have “government”. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-an-anarchist-society-avoid-recreating-government/613122/80 "2012-02-20T01:18:36Z")
In [When did killing become a public offense, not just a private one?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=508305&highlight=hrothgar) , I pointed out that once upon a time even crimes as serious as murder weren’t punished by the authority of a centralized state. So of course society is going to have rules enforced by tradition or consensus or private oaths of fealty, but the enforcement could conceivably be much more decentralized. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-an-anarchist-society-avoid-recreating-government/613122.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-an-anarchist-society-avoid-recreating-government/613122.md?page=5)