# How would Bernie Sanders's constitutional amendment overturning Citizens United actually work? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 23, 2015, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-bernie-sanderss-constitutional-amendment-overturning-citizens-united-actually-work/728588 "2015-08-23T06:59:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-bernie-sanderss-constitutional-amendment-overturning-citizens-united-actually-work/728588/41 "2015-08-24T23:37:32Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > If these groups are using public resources like the airwaves and the Internet to advertise… There is a valid justification for regulation of broadcast television, because there is only a finite number of channel-hours in the day: there’s only so much EM spectrum to go around, so it is a resource that needs to be rationed in some manner. The internet is _not_ such a resource. There are literally hundreds of millions of “channels” simultaneously active, whose content is not restricted to a particular 1/24th of a second. It is functionally impossible for anyone except Google or Facebook to crowd out opposing speech on the internet. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-bernie-sanderss-constitutional-amendment-overturning-citizens-united-actually-work/728588/42 "2015-08-25T00:35:07Z")
And yet Google and Facebook exist. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-bernie-sanderss-constitutional-amendment-overturning-citizens-united-actually-work/728588/43 "2015-08-25T01:20:22Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > No, I fully understand the nuances and what Citizens United, for example, was about. But as already indicated upthread, the net balance of the political dynamic is a consequence of a complex mix of factors including laws, culture, and sociopolitical factors. I don’t presume to claim that any particular system is superior to any other, but I do assert that the American political dynamic as presently structured is overwhelmingly dominated by money and that that fact, in and of itself, has very damaging consequences. > > Here’s just a small counter-example that comes to mind. Canada limits both political contributions and election spending, but completely aside from that, there is also a robust public radio and television broadcasting system. CBC Radio is commercial-free, but during election season all five of the major parties (two of which are marginal and have no hope of ever forming a government) are granted equal amounts of airtime for their respective spokesmen to convey their messages. They all get it, and for free, but none can get any more by paying for it. It’s the **ideas** that dominate, not the purchased noise and shiny objects. The parties can and do also buy time on commercial stations, but the CBC Radio model is kind of the ideal I’m describing. > > Consider for a moment an absurdly inverted scenario: a televised debate where candidates earned their appearances by monetary contributions, and got to speak as long as they wanted provided that they were willing to pay for it by the minute. (Because, hey, money is speech, right, conservatives?) And how about the candidates get to own the moderators by competing bids for them in an auction? Ridiculous? Sure it’s ridiculous. Yet that’s exactly how the overall political system works as it’s currently structured. I notice you still haven’t answered Richard Parker’s question. Let’s rephrase it. Are you saying that Canada has laws minimizing the amount of money a person can spend expressing his believe that Stephen Harper is a horrible PM, such as say writing a book, commissioning a documentary, setting up the website [Stephenharperisamoron.com](http://Stephenharperisamoron.com) or buying ads in media criticizing him even if that person doesn’t endorse another candidate or even explicitly tell people not to hot for him? Yes or no? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-bernie-sanderss-constitutional-amendment-overturning-citizens-united-actually-work/728588/44 "2015-08-25T01:34:48Z")
I’m glad someone at least admits that there is a tension here between free speech and campaign-finance reform. Personally, I don’t want to go down the slippery slope of restricting political speech. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Has anyone proposed that? I don’t think they have thought it through. But if they are proposing to muzzle those groups, then I’m against it. > [@DSeid](#): > > Hmmm. Are the UAW and NRDC “for-profit corporations, limited liability > 10 companies, or other private entities established for busi- > 11 ness purposes or to promote business interests under the > 12 laws of any state, the United States, or any foreign state”? > > If not then, yes, the proposed legislation proposes that. So if someone starts a nonprofit organization that’s basically the opposite of the Sierra Club, you would foresee there being no problem with the Kochs donating billions to that after this amendment is ratified? Don’t you see then how pointless this whole exercise would be? As for Canada: my sister, my mother, my stepfather, my brother-in-law, and my niece and nephew are all Canadian citizens who have lived in that country for the past 20 years or more. Some of them used to brag on Canada being so much more progressive than the US., especially about 10 to 12 years ago. They have all shut up now, nearly a decade into the Stephen Harper era, except for my mother–who openly states that she was wrong to think that. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-bernie-sanderss-constitutional-amendment-overturning-citizens-united-actually-work/728588/45 "2015-08-25T01:39:17Z")
I’m merely responding the factual question. Not sure what I think but my lean reading along so far is that this is not a meaningful stab at reform and more a silly something that feels good and does nothing. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-bernie-sanderss-constitutional-amendment-overturning-citizens-united-actually-work/728588/46 "2015-08-25T02:00:03Z")
I went overboard listing all of my Canadian relatives. To clarify, my niece and nephew are only five and seven years old, so they have not lived in Canada for twenty years, nor do they have opinions on politics. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-bernie-sanderss-constitutional-amendment-overturning-citizens-united-actually-work/728588/47 "2015-08-25T02:08:31Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Have you not noticed the inexorable drifting of American politics further and further to the right as the years and the decades go by? That’s absurd. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-bernie-sanderss-constitutional-amendment-overturning-citizens-united-actually-work/728588/48 "2015-08-25T05:09:16Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > YNowhere else on earth do politicians audition in front of billionaires and seek their approval for political office, as Republican candidates did when they flew to Vegas to kiss Sheldon Adelson’s ass, or attended the Koch brothers’ private and mostly secret political convention so the Kochs could select the best corrupt shill for their personal needs. Bear in mind that Democratic billionaires [have](http://www.politico.com/story/2015/01/blue-billionaires-on-top-114151.html) [outspent](http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/democratic-billionaires-outdo-gop-in-super-pac-contributions/article/2555282) their Republican counterparts lately. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-bernie-sanderss-constitutional-amendment-overturning-citizens-united-actually-work/728588/49 "2015-08-25T08:55:54Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > I say nuke the First Amendment and bring back the Equal Time rule. And that’s the thing. We didn’t have to get rid of the First Amendment to have Equal Time or the Fairness Doctrine. But since the absolutists took over, now we do. The 1st amendment is meant to be near absolute. If it’s not, then it’s not really a right, it’s just a statement of malleable principle. THe Fairness Doctrine was a reasonable restriction in a time of limited airwaves, but with cable and the internet it no longer applies. It’s not that our interpretation of the 1st amendment became more absolute, it’s that technology changed, thus making what used to be reasonable restrictions to guarantee fairness on the few TV stations that existed would today be just speech restrictions for its own sake. same goes for campaign finance. Campaign finance restrictions are entirely reasonable. The problem is that we found that restricting giving to campaigns just means that people can start their own campaigns. Or spend their own money on their own candidacies. The Supreme Court rightly said in 1976 that you can’t restrict the latter because there’s no compelling government interest at stake. A person can’t corrupt himself with his own money. And in 2010 the Supreme Court rightly said that you can’t restrict independent campaigning. There was no potential corruption issue with Hillary: the Movie. Now there could be some “independent” spending that isn’t, and Congress should attempt to address that by defining more clearly what constitutes coordination. It seems to me that these Super PACs the candidates are using are arms of the campaigns in all but name. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-bernie-sanderss-constitutional-amendment-overturning-citizens-united-actually-work/728588/50 "2015-08-25T09:59:01Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > “Corporations aren’t people,” is a campaign line, not useful law. It seems a fairly clear distinction to me. An institution defined by law, created for specific purposes, with liabilities limited and fiduciary responsibilities prescribed by law, is clearly not the same thing as a natural person endowed with human rights which precede and define law. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-bernie-sanderss-constitutional-amendment-overturning-citizens-united-actually-work/728588/51 "2015-08-25T10:00:01Z")
It’s beside the point anyway, since individuals are the ones spending millions. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-bernie-sanderss-constitutional-amendment-overturning-citizens-united-actually-work/728588/52 "2015-08-26T03:22:47Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > That’s absurd. Presidential candidate James Earl Carter was a conservative. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-bernie-sanderss-constitutional-amendment-overturning-citizens-united-actually-work/728588/53 "2015-08-26T03:27:56Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > It seems a fairly clear distinction to me. An institution defined by law, created for specific purposes, with liabilities limited and fiduciary responsibilities prescribed by law, is clearly not the same thing as a natural person endowed with human rights which precede and define law. Soooo, that means that Planned Parenthood offices can be searched without a warrant, since only persons have 4th amendment rights. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-bernie-sanderss-constitutional-amendment-overturning-citizens-united-actually-work/728588/54 "2015-08-26T03:44:06Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Soooo, that means that Planned Parenthood offices can be searched without a warrant, since only persons have 4th amendment rights. To the extent that doing so would not violate the privacy right of any person who might be a client of the organization. You would run afoul of that doctor-patient confidentiality rule, which I believe is still pretty strongly protected by the legal system. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-bernie-sanderss-constitutional-amendment-overturning-citizens-united-actually-work/728588/55 "2015-08-26T03:53:24Z")
That’s the rub. You can’t restrict corporate rights without also restricting individual rights. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-bernie-sanderss-constitutional-amendment-overturning-citizens-united-actually-work/728588/56 "2015-08-26T04:03:50Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Soooo, that means that Planned Parenthood offices can be searched without a warrant, since only persons have 4th amendment rights. You do come up with a good point occasionally! ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-bernie-sanderss-constitutional-amendment-overturning-citizens-united-actually-work/728588/57 "2015-08-26T15:01:03Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Soooo, that means that Planned Parenthood offices can be searched without a warrant, since only persons have 4th amendment rights. No, it means that whatever arguments there are concerning how easy or hard it should be to search the Planned Parenthood offices, they are not automatically the same as the arguments concerning how easy or hard it should be to search a individual’s home. > [@](#): > > That’s the rub. You can’t restrict corporate rights without also restricting individual rights. Of course you can. We do it all the time. The fact that something is tricky and complicated and sometimes leads to ambiguity doesn’t mean that it’s impossible. It’s a fundamental constitutional principle that I, as a US citizen, have the right to freely express my opinion. It’s also a useful legal concept to treat corporations as legal entities for purposes of signing contracts, being sued, etc. But there’s no reason to extend what is basically a useful legal fiction and treat corporations as equally protected by the 1st amendment. We could if we wanted to (and in general we do), but not doing so wouldn’t be depriving any actual person of their individual 1st amendment rights. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-bernie-sanderss-constitutional-amendment-overturning-citizens-united-actually-work/728588/58 "2015-08-26T15:01:41Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That’s the rub. You can’t restrict corporate rights without also restricting individual rights. Not only does that not correlate in any way to what I said, it makes absolutely no sense. One of the main functions of LLC-type businesses is to insulate the participants from responsibility, so that they can invest money without fear of reprisal if the business gets in trouble. This makes a corporation very much not like a person, so they really ought not be subject to the same set of rights and responsibilities. Logically, the laws governing each should be free to vary independently wrt each other. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-bernie-sanderss-constitutional-amendment-overturning-citizens-united-actually-work/728588/59 "2015-08-26T15:21:11Z")
We give corporations some rights and not others. They don’t have a right against self-incrimination. They don’t get to vote. But they do get to speak. It is not useful to defend or attack that principle by appeal to the analogy of corporation as person. It stands or falls on its own merits, which are simple: there’s not a very good reason for distinguishing between the rights of a partnership and the rights of a corporation when it comes to speech, and there is a good reason for thinking that restrictions on groups of people pooling their money together to speak would meaningfully limit free speech. Indeed, forbidding corporate speech but allowing identical individual speech may well empower the billionaires even further. David Koch doesn’t need to pool his money with anyone else to produce a video. The people who donated to Citizens United probably do. The strongest argument against corporate speech rights is the disconnect in accountability. It is harder to know who is speaking. But there are many ways to remedy that disconnect that do not implicate free speech: namely, disclosure requirements. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-bernie-sanderss-constitutional-amendment-overturning-citizens-united-actually-work/728588/60 "2015-08-26T15:30:34Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > We give corporations some rights and not others. They don’t have a right against self-incrimination. They don’t get to vote. But they do get to speak. > > It is not useful to defend or attack that principle by appeal to the analogy of corporation as person. It stands or falls on its own merits, which are simple: there’s not a very good reason for distinguishing between the rights of a partnership and the rights of a corporation when it comes to speech, and there is a good reason for thinking that restrictions on groups of people pooling their money together to speak would meaningfully limit free speech. > > Indeed, forbidding corporate speech but allowing identical individual speech may well empower the billionaires even further. David Koch doesn’t need to pool his money with anyone else to produce a video. The people who donated to Citizens United probably do. > > The strongest argument against corporate speech rights is the disconnect in accountability. It is harder to know who is speaking. But there are many ways to remedy that disconnect that do not implicate free speech: namely, disclosure requirements. Do you ever get tired of being not only one of the most reasonable people on this MB, but also the one of the most articulate? 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-bernie-sanderss-constitutional-amendment-overturning-citizens-united-actually-work/728588.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-bernie-sanderss-constitutional-amendment-overturning-citizens-united-actually-work/728588.md?page=4)