# How would LOTR read if Frodo had died at Mount Doom? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 4, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-lotr-read-if-frodo-had-died-at-mount-doom/523668 "2010-01-04T19:57:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-lotr-read-if-frodo-had-died-at-mount-doom/523668/21 "2010-01-04T21:15:23Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I don’t see Gandalf as having much to do with the composition of the Red Book. That’s definitely something he would feel had to be left, for good or ill, in the hands of men. For one thing, he would have trusted Aragorn to oversee it properly, just as he trusted Frodo to write it correctly in the “real” history. For another thing, I don’t imagine that he’d hang around Middle-earth as long as he did if Frodo had died. I’ve always taken it that he stayed as long as he did so that he could accompany Frodo and Bilbo on that final voyage, and I don’t imagine that Bilbo would want to stick around either. I think Gandalf was actually waiting more on Elrond and Galadriel than on the pair of Hobbits. Those few years were but a short time to Gandalf. > [@Oakminster](#): > > That freaking low-DPS Angel/Wizard hybrid got the glory, when Oak actually did the work. And yea, verily, did Oak lead the Council of War alliance into the battle at Helms Deep, from the South did they strike with Karana’s fury, and they smote the orcs before them. Tolkien was clearly an anti-druidite. Well he was fairly tough on Radagast, wasn’t he? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-lotr-read-if-frodo-had-died-at-mount-doom/523668/22 "2010-01-04T21:55:17Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > That freaking low-DPS Angel/Wizard hybrid got the glory, when Oak actually did the work. And yea, verily, did Oak lead the Council of War alliance into the battle at Helms Deep, from the South did they strike with Karana’s fury, and they smote the orcs before them. Tolkien was clearly an anti-druidite. I understood that part. I didn’t understand the bit about the the sunrise. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-lotr-read-if-frodo-had-died-at-mount-doom/523668/23 "2010-01-04T22:02:51Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I understood that part. I didn’t understand the bit about the the sunrise. Maybe the line isn’t in the books? In the movie, the non-dpsing angel dude tells Strider to hold Helms Deep, and said angel-dude will come to help at dawn of the fifth day…which is apparently the fifth day after that conversation, and not the fifth day of the fight. Things look grim for our heroes until dawn, where lo and behold, in the East, in all his cinematic backlit glory, stands angel-dude with some random horseclans dudes for backup. They charge, and apparently angel dude finally figured out some point blank area of effect damage spell, cuz he mows through orcs like a mage oughta, for once. ---
**Author:** ![Dioptre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/278dde/32.png) [@Dioptre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dioptre)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-lotr-read-if-frodo-had-died-at-mount-doom/523668/24 "2010-01-04T22:40:49Z")
I think we can get some indication of what the character’s thought was important from their Ring visions. Sam, if left to write the book, would not have written a heroic tale. As the traumatic events of the final days of Frodo faded, he would have dwelt on those things he found easier to think about - the beauty of elves, the forests and landscapes they had walked through, the gardening of Minas Tiroth (he would have seen that more recently than Mt Doom), and everything he could find out about the Ents from Merry and Pippin. He may even have detoured to talk to any Ent survivors. Merry and Pippin would of course have co-authored anything that was written, and there would be side-notes correcting each other scribled in all of the margins. Faramir would have written a much more human-interest tale. The relationships between characters, and the struggle to overcome personal weakness would have featured over the struggle against Sauron. Gimli would have been very critical of those who failed in what he saw as their duty - the dwarves, many of the elves, some of the humans. Think a sort of post-battle disection, with grudging admiration for those who fought. I can’t work out Legolas. In an elven mind - even his - I think the passing of the Elves from Middle-Earth is the big event, and the fight against Sauron is more honoring the old alliances and closing loose ends. Despite their friendship, Gimli and himself would hardly warrant a footnote. Aragorn would have written from Frodo’s point of view. His personal diaries would be published as a sequel. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-lotr-read-if-frodo-had-died-at-mount-doom/523668/25 "2010-01-04T23:04:12Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > \*\*\*\*Though of course there was no silly wrestling match. That is a vicious lie put about by that guy who directed that movie with the giant monkey. But I will not speak ill of him, for despite his other sins he did bring Kate Winslet into our lives, and as she is the next-to-last vestige of Eldarian beauty in Mortal Lands, he is to be forgiven. Beg to differ. The text says that Sam looked up and saw Gollum “fighting like a mad thing” against an unseen foe. Gollum struggled, and then bit Frodo’s finger off, at which point, Frodo reappeared, slumped to his knees and nursing his wounded hand. However, Frodo did NOT push Gollum in, in contrast to the movie - Gollum, dancing around in his delight at recovering his Precious, took one step too far… ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-lotr-read-if-frodo-had-died-at-mount-doom/523668/26 "2010-01-04T23:05:59Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > Beg to differ. > > The text says that Sam looked up and saw Gollum “fighting like a mad thing” against an unseen foe. Gollum struggled, and then bit Frodo’s finger off, at which point, Frodo reappeared, slumped to his knees and nursing his wounded hand. > > However, Frodo did NOT push Gollum in, in contrast to the movie - Gollum, dancing around in his delight at recovering his Precious, took one step too far… Frodo pushing Gollum into the lake of fire was what I was referring to as the silly wrestling match. Anyway, the important part of that note, which you inexplicably ignore, was the subtle allusion to Kate Winslet’s boobies. ---
**Author:** ![robardin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@robardin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robardin)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-lotr-read-if-frodo-had-died-at-mount-doom/523668/27 "2010-01-04T23:17:56Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Frodo pushing Gollum into the lake of fire was what I was referring to as the silly wrestling match. Anyway, the important part of that note, which you inexplicably ignore, was the subtle allusion to **Kate Winslet** ’s boobies. You mean Liv Tyler? [Gollum was the real hero anyway](http://tinyurl.com/ydsa6jd). No Ringbearer could bear to throw the Precious into the fire, the only way to do it would be to wear it and then leap into the fire. Untold is the story of how a redeemed Smeagol took control in his last, glorious moments, when he saw that Frodo had failed in the Quest: seizing Frodo’s hand, biting off the ring and nobly leaping into Orodruin (carefully avoiding the temptation of removing the ring) to destroy it before Frodo could easily overpower his frail, emaciated self to regain it, or that treacherous sneak-glutton Sam… ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-lotr-read-if-frodo-had-died-at-mount-doom/523668/28 "2010-01-04T23:26:14Z")
> [@robardin](#): > > You mean Liv Tyler? No, I was referring to the movie _Heavenly Creatures_. I do not currently admit to knowing who Liv Tyler is. > [@](#): > > [Gollum was the real hero anyway](http://tinyurl.com/ydsa6jd). Everybody knows that. > [@](#): > > No Ringbearer could bear to throw the Precious into the fire, the only way to do it would be to wear it and then leap into the fire. Untold is the story of how a redeemed Smeagol took control in his last, glorious moments, when he saw that Frodo had failed in the Quest: seizing Frodo’s hand, biting off the ring and nobly leaping into Orodruin (carefully avoiding the temptation of removing the ring) to destroy it before Frodo could easily overpower his frail, emaciated self to regain it, or that treacherous sneak-glutton Sam. Well…sorta. Gollum would not have voluntarily take the ring to Mount Doom. As I have opined in other threads, it was the combination of Frodo, Sam, & Gollum that was responsible for destroying the Ring. Of course, if they’d failed, the Valar woulda just sent Tulkas, Eonwe, Orome, and a couple hundred lesser Maiar to settle it. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-lotr-read-if-frodo-had-died-at-mount-doom/523668/29 "2010-01-05T00:22:55Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > Well I know in the original version it starts with Frodo floating face down and a voice over says, “Yes this is Mount Doom, Mordor, Middle Earth. It’s about 5 o’clock in the morning…” I _am_ big. It’s Middle Earth that got small. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-lotr-read-if-frodo-had-died-at-mount-doom/523668/30 "2010-01-05T01:53:27Z")
“I’m ready for my closeup, Mr. Jackson…” ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-lotr-read-if-frodo-had-died-at-mount-doom/523668/31 "2010-01-05T04:03:55Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > Well I know in the original version it starts with Frodo floating face down and a voice over says, “Yes this is Mount Doom, Mordor, Middle Earth. It’s about 5 o’clock in the morning…” I see what you did there. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-lotr-read-if-frodo-had-died-at-mount-doom/523668/32 "2010-01-05T05:03:35Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > As everyone knows, The Lord of the Rings is based on historical events\*–the exploits of Frodo Baggins, his servant\*\* Samwise, and their companions during the war that ended the Third Age and restored the heirs of Isildur\*\*\* to the throne of Gondor. The book we have is a translation by Professor Tolkien of an ancient text written by a certain notorious Burglar (Book 1), the burglar’s **nephew** & heir (Books II-VI), the mayor of Hobbiton (the very end of Book VI), the Master of Buckland (the Prologue), and various anonymous Gondorian scribes (Appendix One and the non-halfling poems). Cousin. The burglar, having been an only child, and unmarried, had no nephews or nieces. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-lotr-read-if-frodo-had-died-at-mount-doom/523668/33 "2010-01-05T13:34:34Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > Well I know in the original version it starts with Frodo floating face down and a voice over says, “Yes this is Mount Doom, Mordor, Middle Earth. It’s about 5 o’clock in the morning…” No, I actually have an extremely rare copy of Prof Tolkien’s first draft. It starts with a hobbit, standing in a graveyard in Ithilien, searching for, then finding, a particular stone marker. As he begins to remember, the scene cuts to 40 years ago, one of the great battles of the Ring War… Of course it ends with Frodo telling Sam to ‘Earn this!’ ---
**Author:** ![robardin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@robardin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robardin)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-lotr-read-if-frodo-had-died-at-mount-doom/523668/34 "2010-01-05T14:37:29Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > No, I actually have an extremely rare copy of Prof Tolkien’s first draft. > It starts with a hobbit, standing in a graveyard in Ithilien, searching for, then finding, a particular stone marker… Really? I would think it’d go like this: **West of House** You are standing in a road in Hobbiton to the west of a large burrow with a circular door. A steady stream of hobbits are making their way to the back yard, decorated for a birthday party. There is a mailbox here. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-lotr-read-if-frodo-had-died-at-mount-doom/523668/35 "2010-01-05T15:16:25Z")
The interesting scenario would be for Sam to hit Gollum over the head with a rock and help Frodo into the Crack of Doom. Then, when Frodo puts the ring on, Sam fights with him out of love. Gollum awakes just in time to see both Sam and an unseen figure fall into the lava. The eagles rescue Gollum, and he dictates the last chapter of the story. Lots more hissing and discursive remarks about fish. Does Gollum sail to the West? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-lotr-read-if-frodo-had-died-at-mount-doom/523668/36 "2010-01-05T19:10:00Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Cousin. The burglar, having been an only child, and unmarried, had no nephews or nieces. Like I don’t know that. Anyway, Frodo called Bilbo his cousin on several occasions. It’s like **Cinderella the Rhymer** calling me “Poppy” even though I am no genetic relationship to her and was never married to her mother. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-lotr-read-if-frodo-had-died-at-mount-doom/523668/37 "2010-01-05T19:30:06Z")
> [@robardin](#): > > Really? I would think it’d go like this: > > **West of House** > You are standing in a road in Hobbiton to the west of a large burrow with a circular door. A steady stream of hobbits are making their way to the back yard, decorated for a birthday party. > There is a mailbox here. \> break mailbox You’re not strong enough to do that. \> eat hobbits. You’re already full! \> kill hobbits. Hobbits are quite hard to kill with your bare hands. Perhaps you should look for a weapon of some sort. \> i You have: Some food in a bag. Some food in your pocket. Extra food. \> throw food Where do you want to throw food? \> throw food at hobbits One of the hobbits deftly snatches the food out of the air, and stuffs it in his mouth. He says “Thank you cousin Frodo!” You are hungry. ---
**Author:** ![Lady\_of\_the\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@Lady\_of\_the\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lady_of_the_Lake)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-lotr-read-if-frodo-had-died-at-mount-doom/523668/38 "2010-01-07T16:35:34Z")
Bravo muldoonthief! A wonderful tale! 😃 Brought a tear to my eye, it did. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-lotr-read-if-frodo-had-died-at-mount-doom/523668/39 "2010-01-07T17:29:15Z")
Oh, man, I totally recognize that annoying script, but cannot for the life of me remember exactly where I saw it. Though I VAGUELY recall something of the like related to a computer game nebulously related to the Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy. God I hate being “old”. :mad: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-lotr-read-if-frodo-had-died-at-mount-doom/523668.md?page=1)