# How would reparations work? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 21, 2017, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113 "2017-05-21T01:01:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2017, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/81 "2017-05-22T18:12:37Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > In those situations the wrongs had already been clearly addressed and remedied to the extent they could be. So there was no danger that reparations might become a substitution for fixing the underlying wrongs. > > You also had a much clearer issue of financial loss in the Japanese internment and the Holocaust situations. A Japanese American living in Los Angeles or a Jewish German living in Berlin might have owned a house and a business. When they were taken away by their governments, their property was lost as a result. In situations like that, it’s pretty easy to show the direct connection between a government action and a specific financial loss. > > The situation with Black Americans is much more nebulous. It’s rarely a case of somebody having their house or business taken away from them. Instead it’s a general pattern of denying people opportunities to own houses or businesses. Which makes it a lot more difficult to put a price tag on the loss. But there are many smaller pieces of the much larger puzzle of racism and discrimination that could reasonably be identified and described rather specifically similarly to the Japanese internment, like redlining and housing discrimination. Even segregation could be looked at this way for those living Americans who were harmed due to substandard access and public facilities when they were younger. Why is it not reasonable to look at these instances and consider the possibility of compensation in the same way that we did for Japanese internment? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2017, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/82 "2017-05-22T18:36:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > With a public advertising campaign, ask the public to contact the “Compensation Administration Team” (CAT) if they lived in the areas affected by redlining policies in the years in which they were active. At the same time, dig through public records (census, tax records, property records, etc.) to find out who lived there. Correlate information with other sources – if someone says they lived there, check the public records, and check the statements of their confirmed neighbors. Interview them and ask questions about whether they sought assistance and were denied. Some of these individuals may have their own records – utility bills, loan denial letters, financial records, deeds, etc. Some of them probably will still live there. With some time and effort, we should be able to get a pretty good picture of who lived in these affected neighborhoods, and who owned property there, and eventually, who tried to get assistance and was denied. > > Undoubtedly there will be unforeseen challenges, but that’s no reason to not consider this. The only salient record there for those denied loans would be loan denial records. Essentially no one is going to have their loan denial letter from 40+ years ago. Even if they did, how do you prove that they were denied for unjust reasons? As for proving that they owned property, you conveniently ignored the unintended consequences of this. Those most affected by discriminatory policies are the least likely to have owned property. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2017, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/83 "2017-05-22T18:39:35Z")
> [@treis](#): > > The only salient record there for those denied loans would be loan denial records. Essentially no one is going to have their loan denial letter from 40+ years ago. Even if they did, how do you prove that they were denied for unjust reasons? > > As for proving that they owned property, you conveniently ignored the unintended consequences of this. Those most affected by discriminatory policies are the least likely to have owned property. There will never be 100% perfect reparations. There weren’t for Japanese internment, and for the Holocaust. Fraud is possible. That isn’t a reason not to consider it or investigate it. I hold that a reasonable confidence level could be achieved (and your concerns don’t seem particularly significant to me – when all government loans and assistance were barred by law for certain neighborhoods, as was true for redlining, it’s reasonable to consider that those in those neighborhoods who were denied loans and assistance were harmed by that policy). ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2017, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/84 "2017-05-22T19:10:06Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > it’s reasonable to consider that those in those neighborhoods who were denied loans and assistance were harmed by that policy). I don’t doubt that they were harmed, as have been many communities of all colour and creed, but I don’t see how it would be possible to quantify that harm and apportion any financial compensation in an equitable way. Your to solution to harm is “write a cheque” (amount, recipient and eligibility yet to be decided) mine would be to spend money on creating better structures and policies and strictly enforcing current anti-discrimination legislation. I think your approach is far more problematic and divisive. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2017, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/85 "2017-05-22T19:16:10Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I don’t doubt that they were harmed, as have been many communities of all colour and creed, but I don’t see how it would be possible to quantify that harm and apportion any financial compensation in an equitable way. > > Your to solution to harm is “write a cheque” (amount, recipient and eligibility yet to be decided) mine would be to spend money on creating better structures and policies and strictly enforcing current anti-discrimination legislation. > I think your approach is far more problematic and divisive. I used to feel this way. Have you read the article I linked to early in the thread by Coates? It was a big part of my mind changing. I heartily recommend it. It is long, but well worth it, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2017, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/86 "2017-05-22T19:51:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Why is it not reasonable to look at these instances and consider the possibility of compensation in the same way that we did for Japanese internment? For the reasons I’ve said. Reparations are usually seen as the final step in addressing an injustice. The usual process is to identify the injustice, fix it, and then make amends to the people who were adversely affected by it. If you jump from the first step to the third step, a lot of people are going to feel there’s no need to go back to the second step. The feeling will be _“Well, we paid black people. Racial discrimination has now been settled. We don’t have to worry about that any more.”_ Which is wrong; racial discrimination is still occurring. We need to keep working on this problem. We shouldn’t let the need to address current and future problems be sacrificed to an attempt to address past problems. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2017, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/87 "2017-05-22T20:08:58Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > For the reasons I’ve said. Reparations are usually seen as the final step in addressing an injustice. The usual process is to identify the injustice, fix it, and then make amends to the people who were adversely affected by it. > > If you jump from the first step to the third step, a lot of people are going to feel there’s no need to go back to the second step. The feeling will be _“Well, we paid black people. Racial discrimination has now been settled. We don’t have to worry about that any more.”_ > > Which is wrong; racial discrimination is still occurring. We need to keep working on this problem. We shouldn’t let the need to address current and future problems be sacrificed to an attempt to address past problems. I see this as an entirely artificial barrier. Reparations are meant to serve as compensation for damages suffered. Policies like affirmative action are meant to correct for ongoing discrimination. Neither cancels the need for the other. There are legitimate damages that have been suffered. I don’t see how it’s unreasonable to consider compensating for those damages. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2017, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/88 "2017-05-22T20:19:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I used to feel this way. Have you read the article I linked to early in the thread by Coates? It was a big part of my mind changing. I heartily recommend it. It is long, but well worth it, IMO. I’ve read it and there is nothing in there that makes a strong case for writing people a cheque, nothing that says how it would be done, nor how it would make things any better. Does the current society bear a duty to put things right for all disadvantaged communities? Yes, I just do not see how giving people a wad of money will do that, nor do I think that it would even be possible to to calculate or distribute it in any fair way. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2017, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/89 "2017-05-22T20:26:05Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I’ve read it and there is nothing in there that makes a strong case for writing people a cheque, nothing that says how it would be done, nor how it would make things any better. > Does the current society bear a duty to put things right for all disadvantaged communities? Yes, I just do not see how giving people a wad of money will do that, nor do I think that it would even be possible to to calculate or distribute it in any fair way. To me this just sounds like “oppression and discrimination against black people were much, much more significant and complicated than against the Japanese Americans who were interred, therefore _we shouldn’t give money to those who suffered damages_”. Which totally doesn’t make sense to me in any way. There really are cases out there in which someone still alive was denied a loan or other assistance by the government because they are black. That they would have significantly greater wealth, as would their children, _which could reasonably, if roughly, be estimated,_ if they were not treated unfairly by the government in the past. I think justice and morality demands that compensation for such damages be considered. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2017, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/90 "2017-05-22T20:26:26Z")
If you actually agree that reparations are warranted, other policy choices may flow from that even if reparations themselves are logistically impossible. So it’s worth starting the debate there: Do you believe reparations are warranted? If not, then all the talk about being too hard to administer or distribute is just a smoke screen, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2017, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/91 "2017-05-22T20:41:59Z")
One thing I dont see brought up is that the reparation amount, $40,000 or say $80,000, in the long run, really wont make that big of a difference in someones life. Consider for most people thats at most, one years salary. That amount, well they can buy 1-2 cars, down payments on 1 house, or send 1 kid to college. They will NOT have won the lottery. And you can bet that when the checks come their will be plenty of people ready to find ways to help all those blacks spend that money. So short story, the money will dry up within a year and nobody will be better off. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2017, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/92 "2017-05-22T20:43:41Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > If you actually agree that reparations are warranted, other policy choices may flow from that even if reparations themselves are logistically impossible. > > So it’s worth starting the debate there: Do you believe reparations are warranted? If not, then all the talk about being too hard to administer or distribute is just a smoke screen, isn’t it? Yes. The ironic but true answer to the OP’s title question is that reparations work by doing what we’re doing right now, which is talking about why and how reparations would work. Though, it’s sort of sad that we have to resort to the financial realm in order to put these issues into a perspective we can even begin to comprehend. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2017, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/93 "2017-05-22T20:46:40Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > One thing I dont see brought up is that the reparation amount, $40,000 or say $80,000, in the long run, really wont make that big of a difference in someones life. Consider for most people thats at most, one years salary. > > That amount, well they can buy 1-2 cars, down payments on 1 house, or send 1 kid to college. They will NOT have won the lottery. And you can bet that when the checks come their will be plenty of people ready to find ways to help all those blacks spend that money. > > So short story, the money will dry up within a year and nobody will be better off. If everyone in a poor neighborhood were suddenly $20,000 richer, that neighborhood would probably change quite a bit. Suddenly, there would be pretty good reason for businesses to open nearby – the locals have a lot more money to spend. That would mean more jobs nearby. That would mean property values would increase. Education would be better funded. Etc. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2017, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/94 "2017-05-22T20:52:30Z")
I lived in an area of Southern California that was a prime example of red lines and white flight. The issue was much more complex than cut and dry as it was with the Japanese. Banks just based there decisions purely on financial criteria. The white fight was similar, people were scared and knew that when one black family moved in home prices would crash and it was their lifetime investment. People actually do have a right to make financial decisions. The whites could see black neighborhoods falling apart with rising crime rates and poorly maintained property ( not in all areas, some areas the blacks did an amazing job maintaining the neighborhoods but the fear was always for the worst case scenario. It just was not so cut and dry. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2017, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/95 "2017-05-22T20:57:38Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I lived in an area of Southern California that was a prime example of red lines and white flight. The issue was much more complex than cut and dry as it was with the Japanese. Banks just based there decisions purely on financial criteria. The white fight was similar, people were scared and knew that when one black family moved in home prices would crash and it was their lifetime investment. People actually do have a right to make financial decisions. The whites could see black neighborhoods falling apart with rising crime rates and poorly maintained property ( not in all areas, some areas the blacks did an amazing job maintaining the neighborhoods but the fear was always for the worst case scenario. It just was not so cut and dry. No one is saying reparations would be easy, or “cut and dry”, but that they’d be difficult is no reason not to consider it. Do you now recognize your earlier statements about stereotypes were ridiculous? If not, how do you explain the lack of a stereotype about white men being a clear danger to black women, when historically (when these stereotypes first arose) there was so much more white-on-black rape than the reverse? ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2017, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/96 "2017-05-22T20:57:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You don’t think individuals were harmed by redlining? Or if you think some were, you don’t think they deserve compensation? As others have mentioned, there exist legal remedies for redlining. There have been successful class action suits against lenders. There is a justice system for when injustices, like redlining, have occurred. Why do we need government reparations on top of that? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2017, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/97 "2017-05-22T21:01:56Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > As others have mentioned, there exist legal remedies for redlining. There have been successful class action suits against lenders. There is a justice system for when injustices, like redlining, have occurred. Why do we need government reparations on top of that? For one thing, many, many more living people have been harmed by redlining than have received payouts for damages. For another, these policies were aided and abetted by, and in some cases entirely due to government policy and practice. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2017, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/98 "2017-05-22T21:18:30Z")
It is unjust to punish the 95% of Americans who had absolutely nothing to do with slavery, red lining and/or segregation. Obviously, great wrongs were committed but the answer to injustice isnt more injustice. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2017, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/99 "2017-05-22T21:19:57Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > It is unjust to punish the 95% of Americans who had absolutely nothing to do with slavery, red lining and/or segregation. Obviously, great wrongs were committed but the answer to injustice isnt more injustice. Reparations isn’t punishment any more than paying for the military, or justice system, or fire department, is punishment. Do you consider that reparations for Japanese internment were “punishment” for the taxpayers at the time? If not, why not? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2017, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/100 "2017-05-22T22:09:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > To me this just sounds like “oppression and discrimination against black people were much, much more significant and complicated than against the Japanese Americans who were interred, therefore _we shouldn’t give money to those who suffered damages_”. A short duration incident of easily identified action against easily identified people that was addressed within a decade of it occurring. That’s exactly in line with the my own suggestions. I don’t think the harm done by general discrimination or redlining or loan refusal is anywhere near as neat as you think. > [@](#): > > Which totally doesn’t make sense to me in any way. There really are cases out there in which someone still alive was denied a loan or other assistance by the government because they are black. …or just happened to live in certain areas. I’m assuming you’d demand payments to the white people living in the same place who suffered the same fate? > [@](#): > > That they would have significantly greater wealth, as would their children, _which could reasonably, if roughly, be estimated,_ if they were not treated unfairly by the government in the past. how would you estimate it? how would you unpick the harm done through the refusal of a loan and separate that from the self-help actions that a person could have taken but didn’t? how do you trade those off against each other? Do you bring skin colour into it? Would hispanic or poor white neighbourhoods similarly targeted also be due compensation. If not…good luck explaining that reasoning to Jesus and Mikey. You might have the noble intentions that blacks had it worse for longer and deserve it more but how do you honestly think that will be viewed by those socially disadvantaged groups that don’t get it or by those black households whom you judge to be not disadvantaged enough. Family A gets $20k, Family B gets zilch, I want to sit in on those discussions where you explain why you’ve made that judgement…I suspect you may need some moral support. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113.md?page=6)