# How would reparations work? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 21, 2017, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113 "2017-05-21T01:01:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/121 "2017-05-23T00:53:37Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Since they were actual victims of government malfeasance, no. And only actual victims were paid. > > How bout saying what you believe should happen. I have, multiple times. I’ve suggested that, as a start, we look at those policies, like redlining, that harmed living Americans, and explore, research, investigate, and consider, whether financial compensation might be reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/122 "2017-05-23T07:19:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There could be several possible approaches – estimate the wealth difference between white and black households and stop there (no need to even go into details like redlining in this instance); estimat the damages from specific policies for the “average” black family or individual; go into much more detail, region by region, city by city, or neighborhood by neighborhood, and estimate the average financial damages to each individual within that region/city/neighborhood based on various policies; go into maximal detail and try to estimate how much each individual was harmed based on their individual circumstances. I think your choices here boil down to “simple and terrible” “terrible” and “complicated and terrible”. If you want to sow seeds of division and anger then this is a perfect way to do it because the poor and disenfranchised of all colours and cultures will think “why them and not me?” unless you are thinking of addressing all those denied loans or discriminated against because economic situation or where they live or lack of services and assistance. You may be comfortable that you can ring-fence the situations to which this would apply, I don’t agree, but even you could you won’t be able to ring-fence the social fall-out from it. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/123 "2017-05-23T07:38:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s certainly reasonable to consider. All I’m suggesting is that reparations (or whatever you’d call compensation for damages from policies like redlining) really are a reasonable thing to discuss and investigate, and not a wackadoodle nutty idea that can be dismissed out of hand. The problem is that you’ve started with the solution of “reparations” and worked backwards to find a situation to which it could apply. It is not nutty at all to think that wrong was done and this should be righted where possible. Thinking this is best done through arbitrary compensation via a complex, ill-defined mechanism of calculating financial harm…that does seem unreasonable and potentially damaging. If you think people still living were treated illegally then recourse through the law exists, why not suggest funnelling money into pursuing court cases which has the benefit of an official calculation of harm where applicable and the possibility of those directly responsible being convicted or sanctioned. > [@](#): > > I’m sure you’d agree that reparations were reasonable in 1865. How about 1870? 1900? 1930? 1960? At what point, if you don’t think it’s at all reasonable in the present, did the idea go from reasonable to totally unreasonable? It went from reasonable to unreasonable when the last person born into slavery died. That seems like a clear cut-off point. Do you think that claims for reparations ever become unreasonable? 100 years? 200 years? 500 years? If so, how do you make that distinction? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/124 "2017-05-23T10:25:55Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I think your choices here boil down to “simple and terrible” “terrible” and “complicated and terrible”. > If you want to sow seeds of division and anger then this is a perfect way to do it because the poor and disenfranchised of all colours and cultures will think “why them and not me?” unless you are thinking of addressing all those denied loans or discriminated against because economic situation or where they live or lack of services and assistance. > You may be comfortable that you can ring-fence the situations to which this would apply, I don’t agree, but even you could you won’t be able to ring-fence the social fall-out from it. There would be difficulties, but IMO the benefits would far outweigh negative fallout. Is the possibility of fallout and division the reason why you oppose reparations? Would you otherwise support reparations if there was no worry about social fallout and division? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/125 "2017-05-23T10:29:59Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > The problem is that you’ve started with the solution of “reparations” and worked backwards to find a situation to which it could apply. It is not nutty at all to think that wrong was done and this should be righted where possible. Thinking this is best done through arbitrary compensation via a complex, ill-defined mechanism of calculating financial harm…that does seem unreasonable and potentially damaging. > If you think people still living were treated illegally then recourse through the law exists, why not suggest funnelling money into pursuing court cases which has the benefit of an official calculation of harm where applicable and the possibility of those directly responsible being convicted or sanctioned. I’d support such court cases, but I think they will never cover more than a fraction of deserving cases. Like it or not, many older black Americans quite reasonably are terrified of government, authority, courts, and the like, and even if they think they were wronged, many would be unwilling to come forward due to how badly they’ve been treated by such institutions in the past. IMO, someone should be fighting for folks like them who are essentially unable to fight for themselves. > [@](#): > > It went from reasonable to unreasonable when the last person born into slavery died. That seems like a clear cut-off point. > Do you think that claims for reparations ever become unreasonable? 100 years? 200 years? 500 years? If so, how do you make that distinction? I think they would become unreasonable (or at least far less reasonable to the point that I would no longer support them) at the point at which no one alive has been harmed by government aided or tolerated oppression and discrimination. You mention slavery when I’ve been talking about more recent forms of discrimination. Do you philosophically oppose reparations for things like redlining and other government-backed forms of oppression and discrimination? This paragraph seems different than your earlier opposition based on social and societal practicalities. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/126 "2017-05-23T11:58:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Is the possibility of fallout and division the reason why you oppose reparations? Would you otherwise support reparations if there was no worry about social fallout and division? I wouldn’t start with the assumption that reparations are the logical endpoint of the discussion but I’m not opposed to the concept of reparations in theory as will be clear from my previous posts. I would start with the question "how do ensure things improve for the people alive now and the generations to come?"and then follow that discussion where it leads. There is an enormous amount of ground to cover before a personal cheque gets signed and in the specific cases of redlining and loan refusal I think it is a solution well down the list. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/127 "2017-05-23T12:08:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You mention slavery when I’ve been talking about more recent forms of discrimination. Do you philosophically oppose reparations for things like redlining and other government-backed forms of oppression and discrimination? This paragraph seems different than your earlier opposition based on social and societal practicalities. You brought up 1865 yourself in your suggested timeline which I assumed meant you were referring to the end of slavery, That was the only reason I mentioned slavery myself. Regarding your other points, no, I don’t have a philosophical objection, just a practical one in some cases. That and healthy regard for the fact that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/128 "2017-05-23T14:07:41Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I wouldn’t start with the assumption that reparations are the logical endpoint of the discussion but I’m not opposed to the concept of reparations in theory as will be clear from my previous posts. > I would start with the question "how do ensure things improve for the people alive now and the generations to come?"and then follow that discussion where it leads. There is an enormous amount of ground to cover before a personal cheque gets signed and in the specific cases of redlining and loan refusal I think it is a solution well down the list. My interest in reparations in part is about the societal (and perhaps even psychological) scars that decades and centuries of oppression and brutality have left on so many living Americans. When millions quite reasonably see government, authority, and law enforcement as a dangerous and deadly enemy to be feared, full equality is essentially impossible. Just as so many Japanese Americans saw reparations for their internment as an issue of honor and dignity – that for them to be able to consider themselves truly American, the nation must make amends for its sins against them – I think reparations are as much about healing cultural and psychological rifts as they are about literally repaying people for damages. For so many of those older black folks, based on my conversations with them, reparations would be about the only indication that the government truly, finally sees them as fully American and fully citizens. American government, institutions, and authority were essentially brutal and dangerous enemies of black Americans for the vast majority of American history, well into the living memory of millions of Americans. Ta-Nehisi Coates makes the comparison to a stabbing victim – it’s not enough just to pull the knife out. If you stab me, I don’t have to say “thank you” when you pull the knife out, and that’s not good enough. To truly be just, more is necessary than just pulling the knife out – more than just ending brutal and discriminatory treatment. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/129 "2017-05-23T16:04:29Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > For one thing, many, many more living people have been harmed by redlining than have received payouts for damages. For another, these policies were aided and abetted by, and in some cases entirely due to government policy and practice. Why can’t those who have been harmed but not paid file a lawsuit? Anyone else with a legit claim against an entity, including the government, can take it to court. There have been successful claims and settlements based on redlining. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/130 "2017-05-23T16:08:06Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Why can’t those who have been harmed but not paid file a lawsuit? Anyone else with a legit claim against an entity, including the government, can take it to court. There have been successful claims and settlements based on redlining. Some probably would, but through most of their lives, the American government, courts, and law enforcement have been dangerous and unpredictable (and sometimes even terrorist) enemies, and they’d rather not risk coming forward. Some probably aren’t even aware that this is a possibility. Perhaps some others just aren’t interested. IMO, none of this would excuse the moral need to investigate and explore possible remedies to these injustices. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/131 "2017-05-23T16:37:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Some probably would, but through most of their lives, the American government, courts, and law enforcement have been dangerous and unpredictable (and sometimes even terrorist) enemies, and they’d rather not risk coming forward. Some probably aren’t even aware that this is a possibility. Perhaps some others just aren’t interested. IMO, none of this would excuse the moral need to investigate and explore possible remedies to these injustices. Your last line is where I disagree. The fact that legal remedies do exist, and have been executed, certainly does excuse the need to investigate further remedy. If you’ve been treated unjustly but are too afraid or uninterested to come forward, you get nothing. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/132 "2017-05-23T16:40:22Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Your last line is where I disagree. The fact that legal remedies do exist, and have been executed, certainly does excuse the need to investigate further remedy. If you’ve been treated unjustly but are too afraid or uninterested to come forward, you get nothing. At least we’ve identified the source of our disagreement. I think people who have been terrorized for most of their lives deserve our compassion and support, which includes this kind of thing when they’re functionally unable to seek out such redress themselves. In other words, it’s not the Holocaust survivor’s fault if he doesn’t trust the German government. That distrust is actually pretty reasonable, and doesn’t excuse the German government from owing that survivor redress for past atrocities. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/133 "2017-05-23T17:16:46Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > 1. \*\*Slavery was a long time ago. Everyone directly impacted by slavery is dead. > \*\* > > Yes, but the [reparations that were promised to the slaves were not granted](http://www.pbs.org/wnet/african-americans-many-rivers-to-cross/history/the-truth-behind-40-acres-and-a-mule/). If that denial had not occurred and 100 years of Jim Crow hadn’t followed, we wouldn’t be having this debate, since the wealth of the descendants of slaves would likely NOT be a [twelth](http://www.epi.org/blog/the-racial-wealth-gap-how-african-americans-have-been-shortchanged-out-of-the-materials-to-build-wealth/) of what the average white American family has. No one promised that all freed slaves would get 40-acres-and-a-mule. General Sherman did “\* issued his Special Field Order No. 15, which confiscated as Union property a strip of coastline stretching from Charleston, South Carolina, to the St. John’s River in Florida, including Georgia’s Sea Islands and the mainland thirty miles in from the coast. The order redistributed the roughly 400,000 acres of land to newly freed black families in forty-acre segments.” - > **[Sherman's Field Order No. 15 - New Georgia Encyclopedia](https://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/articles/history-archaeology/shermans-field-order-no-15/)** > > On January 16, 1865, during the Civil War (1861-65), Union general William T. Sherman issued his Special Field Order No. 15, which confiscated as Union property a strip of coastline stretching from Charleston, South Carolina, to the St. John’s River... Indeed, few of those 40000 slaves got those 40 acres. But there was never a "promise’ that all freed slaves would get 40-acres-and-a-mule. My suggestion is that if any of those 40000 come forward now we grant them those 40 acres. None of my ancestors kept black slaves in the USA. Some fought for the Union, in fact. The order was also made to punish Confederate planters. Not Union loyalists. Reparations are a ridiculous idea based upon false history. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/134 "2017-05-23T17:20:59Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > At any rate, precedence has already been set with the interned Japanese Americans, who I hope everyone agrees deserved to be compensated. > **[Internment of Japanese Americans | Reparations and redress](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Americans#Reparations_and_redress)** > > Beginning in the 1960s, a younger generation of Japanese Americans, inspired by the civil rights movement, began what is known as the "Redress Movement", an effort to obtain an official apology and reparations from the federal government for incarcerating their parents and grandparents during the war. They focused not on documented property losses but on the broader injustice and mental suffering caused by the incarceration. The movement's first success was in 1976, when President Gerald Ford pro... Indeed:’ financial redress of $20,000 for each _surviving detainee"_ I agree, 40 acres to each surviving slave. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/135 "2017-05-23T17:22:54Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > And you are only confirming to me that I’m right by not explaining why black reparations would necessarily be different from any other kind of reparations program. The world continued to turn when the Japanese Americans received compensation. When Germany paid reparations to the survivors of the Holocaust, the country didn’t explode. What would be a non-racist reason for having a different expectation for black Americans? Yes, in those cases payment was made to the \*survivors. \* \*\*Not anyone who just happened to have the same skin color of the victims. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/136 "2017-05-23T17:30:14Z")
If I was hurt by some redlining policy I would sue the bank or whoever it was responsible. Did the blacks not have the right to sue like everyone else? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/137 "2017-05-23T17:38:12Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, in those cases payment was made to the \*survivors. \* > > \*\*Not anyone who just happened to have the same skin color of the victims. \*\* I take it you haven’t read the thread, or the linked articles in the thread, in which discrimination and oppression backed by the government that harmed and plundered living Americans has been discussed. Not just slavery. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/138 "2017-05-23T17:41:28Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > If I was hurt by some redlining policy I would sue the bank or whoever it was responsible. Did the blacks not have the right to sue like everyone else? In many cases they don’t have the resources to mount a lawsuit with a chance of success. In other cases they don’t even know it’s possible. And others have lived their lives distrustful of courts because those courts have been tools to plunder their property, and thus aren’t willing to trust them (and risk precious time and money) for the possibility of justice. IMO, none of that excuses the need for redress after wrongdoing. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/139 "2017-05-23T17:47:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I take it you haven’t read the thread, or the linked articles in the thread, in which discrimination and oppression backed by the government that harmed and plundered living Americans has been discussed. Not just slavery. Women have been discriminated and oppressed. Irish Americans. Jews. Native Americans. Asian Americans. Catholics. Others. Let us write all of them a check for $20000. :rolleyes: Yes, America paid \*\* 81,800\*\* Japanese Americans _who survived the Internment camps_ each $20000. America did not pay **18,205,898** Asian Americans each $20000 based upon the color of their skin. I cant believe you cant see how racist this is. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113/140 "2017-05-23T17:51:55Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Women have been discriminated and oppressed. Irish Americans. Jews. Native Americans. Asian Americans. Catholics. Others. Let us write all of them a check for $20000. :rolleyes: > Yes, America paid \*\* 81,800\*\* Japanese Americans _who survived the Internment camps_ each $20000. > > America did not pay **18,205,898** Asian Americans each $20000 based upon the color of their skin. > > I cant believe you cant see how racist this is. I can’t believe you still haven’t read my actual posts, in which I suggest _identifying those specific Americans who were harmed by discriminatory policies_, exactly as was done for Japanese-American internment, and exploring the possibility of financial redress. If you actually read my posts and want to respond, feel free. If you’re just going to respond to crazy straw men, then you’ll have to do it all alone. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-reparations-work/787113.md?page=8)