# How would we best deal with real genetic intelligence differences between groups in society? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 12, 2015, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-we-best-deal-with-real-genetic-intelligence-differences-between-groups-in-society/709606 "2015-01-12T04:48:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-we-best-deal-with-real-genetic-intelligence-differences-between-groups-in-society/709606/21 "2015-01-12T14:46:42Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Whatever the policy response would be, it would be very hard to justify sticking with the status quo. > > If a minority group is found to harbor disproportionately more “low intelligence” genes, then it would be akin to finding a new learning disability in the general population. There would be a clarion call from educators over the critical need for additional resources to help this subset of students achieve their potential, as we try to do for all special needs students. Members of the minority group would be targeted for special testing and early intervention. There would be a demand for special classrooms, special curricula, and specially trained teachers. People with the “low intelligence genes” would be eligible for job placement assistance. If they are that disadvantaged, maybe they would be automatically eligible for disability. > > The criminal justice system would also be upturned, if this group is disproportionately arrested and imprisoned. It’s one thing to suspect this group has received inferior education and nurturing. It’s yet another to _know_ that there is a biological explanation for their criminal propensities. > > And it seems to me that even more protections against discrimination would need to be installed, to protect the members of the group that are not handicapped. An intelligent member of this group shouldn’t have to suffer from any stigma, but we all know this would happen. And it wouldn’t matter how many Ivy League degrees he or she accrued. So there would no doubt be more EEOC lawsuits and calls to continue Affirmation Action. I think even people who against such practices would see why they were needed (the same way that people can understand how disabled people suffer unfairly from discrimination, but not able-bodied racial minorities or women). > > Racialists think finding genetic-based differences in “racial” intelligence would be a game changer, and they would be right. But I don’t think their laissez-faire fantasy would play out. Thanks! This is the kind of answer I was looking for, not to be told that it doesn’t/can’t exist. The only question I’d have is would affirmative action policies in this case be intended to “cherry pick” members of the group into jobs they’re capable of, so that they’re not all painted with the same broad brush? In the current world, there’s a lot of divisiveness about the application of similar policies. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-we-best-deal-with-real-genetic-intelligence-differences-between-groups-in-society/709606/22 "2015-01-12T15:09:24Z")
What difference does it make if Joe has an IQ of 80 and is a member of the “smart” group or if he is member of the “stupid” group? Unless the bell curve had little overlap, we’d still just be dealing with individual differences, not predictable by group membership. And over time, as the groups intermarried the lines would blur even further. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-we-best-deal-with-real-genetic-intelligence-differences-between-groups-in-society/709606/23 "2015-01-12T15:20:32Z")
It’s worth saying that, for human beings, individuals are so variable that group means don’t tell you that much of interest about the individual. Men may make better leaders than women _on the whole_, but that doesn’t mean that, say, Mitt Romney would be a better leader than Elizabeth Warren. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-we-best-deal-with-real-genetic-intelligence-differences-between-groups-in-society/709606/24 "2015-01-12T15:21:55Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Men may make better leaders than women _on the whole_. Is this just an example/hypothetical, or do you actually believe that this is inherently true? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-we-best-deal-with-real-genetic-intelligence-differences-between-groups-in-society/709606/25 "2015-01-12T15:25:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What difference does it make if Joe has an IQ of 80 and is a member of the “smart” group or if he is member of the “stupid” group? Unless the bell curve had little overlap, we’d still just be dealing with individual differences, not predictable by group membership. And over time, as the groups intermarried the lines would blur even further. Actually Joe is a member of a subset group of the smart group called the “also stupid group”. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-we-best-deal-with-real-genetic-intelligence-differences-between-groups-in-society/709606/26 "2015-01-12T17:21:55Z")
> [@bump](#): > > The only question I’d have is would affirmative action policies in this case be intended to “cherry pick” members of the group into jobs they’re capable of, so that they’re not all painted with the same broad brush? I don’t think so, not unless you think AA “cherry picks” currently. Personally I don’t think it does. I think discrimination against this group would be rampant and undeniable. Even unbigoted people would have a hard time not being biased. So if we think AA is a guard against discrimination, one that has at least some utility now, it seems to me that we would need it even more under this hypothetical. A member of a stigmitized minority who has a genius-level IQ would be a boon for a university wanting to showcase its diversity while keeping its academic reputation intact. All I’m saying is that if this is true today (and I think it is), then it would especially be true if that stigmitized minority was found to be also burdened by bad genes. It’s not like disabled folks aren’t already favored by preferential admissions and hiring policies. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-we-best-deal-with-real-genetic-intelligence-differences-between-groups-in-society/709606/27 "2015-01-12T18:59:34Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Whatever the policy response would be, it would be very hard to justify sticking with the status quo. > > The criminal justice system would also be upturned, if this group is disproportionately arrested and imprisoned. It’s one thing to suspect this group has received inferior education and nurturing. It’s yet another to _know_ that there is a biological explanation for their criminal propensities. > Racialists think finding genetic-based differences in “racial” intelligence would be a game changer, and they would be right. But I don’t think their laissez-faire fantasy would play out. There is already a group that is disproportionately arrested and imprisoned. Over 93% of prisoners are men despite men making up less than half of society. There is no question that being a man is genetic. Despite this, no one argues that men should receive lighter sentences or other privileges in the justice system simply because they are men.In fact it is the opposite, [men receive 63% longer sentences for the same crime.](http://www.law.umich.edu/newsandinfo/features/Pages/starr_gender_disparities.aspx) ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-we-best-deal-with-real-genetic-intelligence-differences-between-groups-in-society/709606/28 "2015-01-12T19:27:08Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > There is already a group that is disproportionately arrested and imprisoned. Over 93% of prisoners are men despite men making up less than half of society. There is no question that being a man is genetic. Despite this, no one argues that men should receive lighter sentences or other privileges in the justice system simply because they are men.In fact it is the opposite, [men receive 63% longer sentences for the same crime.](http://www.law.umich.edu/newsandinfo/features/Pages/starr_gender_disparities.aspx) If there was evidence that the vast majority of men who are imprisoned possess different brain wiring or chemistry due to their genetic make-up (sex-linked or otherwise), you better believe there would be compelling arguments made about how unfair this is. We don’t execute the mentally handicapped. We provide special services for the criminally insane. Individuals who have mitigating circumstances are given more lenient sentences. The reason we don’t give males a special break is because we asssume that “maleness” alone doesn’t detract from personal responsibility. But if we have a subpopulation that has impaired reasoning, it doesn’t make sense to punish members of this group the same way we would “normal” people. Maybe the criminal justice system wouldn’t change, but I think this would be tragic. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-we-best-deal-with-real-genetic-intelligence-differences-between-groups-in-society/709606/29 "2015-01-12T19:59:19Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Isn’t the usual argument that Neanderthals evolved, not killed off? No, the prevailing theory is that all pure Neanderthal lines died out, but there was some interbreeding with _Homo sapiens_ and many of us have Neanderthal ancestors. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-we-best-deal-with-real-genetic-intelligence-differences-between-groups-in-society/709606/30 "2015-01-12T20:43:12Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Judging by history, I expect we’d have “dealt with” it a long time ago by exterminating them. You don’t see many Neanderthals running around, do you? A group that was genuinely less intelligent than other humans would have long since been overrun and destroyed. Or more intelligent. The ashkenazi jews have an iq about one standard deviation to the right of average, As a result they are over represented in stem fields, medicine, business, law, etc. The world responds to that with jealousy and violence. So being more successful would make a group a target just like being less successful would. We enslave and Rob those we consider inferior, then get violently jealous of those we consider more successful. The nazis hated blacks because they thought they were monkeys. They hated jews because they thought jews ran the world. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-we-best-deal-with-real-genetic-intelligence-differences-between-groups-in-society/709606/31 "2015-01-12T21:01:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, the prevailing theory is that all pure Neanderthal lines died out, but there was some interbreeding with _Homo sapiens_ and many of us have Neanderthal ancestors. \ Sexy, Sexy Evolution \ ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-we-best-deal-with-real-genetic-intelligence-differences-between-groups-in-society/709606/32 "2015-01-12T21:03:11Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > If the IQ difference were 80 points, maybe, if 15 points, probably not. 15 points over tens of thousands of years would likely be enough to get the lower intelligence group exterminated. If that wasn’t so, then logically such groups would actually exist, or even be common.\* Something \*has pushed all of humanity (including men and women, who have significantly different brain architecture) to have the same average intelligence; evolutionary pressure is the most plausible explanation. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-we-best-deal-with-real-genetic-intelligence-differences-between-groups-in-society/709606/33 "2015-01-12T21:13:48Z")
Let us bear in mind that at present we have no non-controversially reliable method of testing or even defining intelligence. Some psychologists believe there is a single general intelligence factor, _g,_ but [Howard Gardner](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_multiple_intelligences) posits a more complex model with at least seven independent axes of personal intelligence of different kinds – a person could be gifted in verbal-linguistic intelligence and deficient in logical-mathematical, etc. IQ tests do measure something, some stable personal psychological characteristic, in the sense that if you take two well-designed tests five years apart you will probably get roughly the same score each time; but what thing that is is far from settled. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-we-best-deal-with-real-genetic-intelligence-differences-between-groups-in-society/709606/34 "2015-01-12T21:17:33Z")
Meh. In a hundred years or so, a significant portion of the population will be designed genetically to optimise any number of desirable traits. Any given child might inherit 40% or so of its genome from its father, 40% or thereabouts from the mother, and 20% from a pool of desirable and probably trademarked genes. Racism and racial disadvantage will be a thing of the past, at least for those who can pay. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-we-best-deal-with-real-genetic-intelligence-differences-between-groups-in-society/709606/35 "2015-01-12T21:19:52Z")
I don’t think you would need to focus on racial groups as much as intelligence groups. We all need a job, each race will have it standouts and under achievers some raqces may average out better or worse than others so it realy doesn’t need to be addressed by way of genetics. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-we-best-deal-with-real-genetic-intelligence-differences-between-groups-in-society/709606/36 "2015-01-12T21:21:20Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > We did this debate not that long ago. Maybe someone with better search skills than I have can find it. I think we do it about once a week, in our regularly scheduled “I’m not a racist, but black people really are genetically inferior” thread. They’re always flavored with a delicate whiff of “if we’d all just acknowledge this, it would be so much better for them, because we could help!” aroma, to try and make the overt racism go down better. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-we-best-deal-with-real-genetic-intelligence-differences-between-groups-in-society/709606/37 "2015-01-12T21:29:03Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Judging by history, I expect we’d have “dealt with” it a long time ago by exterminating them. You don’t see many Neanderthals running around, do you? You need to read a book on human evolution that’s less than 20 years old. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-we-best-deal-with-real-genetic-intelligence-differences-between-groups-in-society/709606/38 "2015-01-12T21:36:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You need to read a book on human evolution that’s less than 20 years old. There are no Neanderthals running around. And no, a few percentage points of Neanderthal DNA aren’t the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-we-best-deal-with-real-genetic-intelligence-differences-between-groups-in-society/709606/39 "2015-01-12T21:40:51Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, the prevailing theory is that all pure Neanderthal lines died out, but there was some interbreeding with _Homo sapiens_ and many of us have Neanderthal ancestors. Of course, that’s **white** _Homo sapiens_ since the Neanderthals only ever lived in Europe. So, there’s your basis of white racial superiority. We iz de cavemenz! Alley-Oop! Oogah-boogah! Yabba-dabba-doo! ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-we-best-deal-with-real-genetic-intelligence-differences-between-groups-in-society/709606/40 "2015-01-12T23:30:16Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Well it depends if there’s an overlap between the groups’ distributions. > > In the real world, whatever differences there may be between groups, there’s a huge amount of overlap. So however much some people would instinctively like to generalize, and treat groups differently, there’s not much basis for doing so. > But in a hypothetical where virtually everyone in group A is smarter than virtually everyone in group B…then that’s certainly something society would have to explicitly come to terms with, and certainly not make any attempt to level the playing field (although FTR, I’m against AA in this world too). > > Even if there were some divergence in intelligence happening, I strongly suspect that the effect right now is swamped by other factors like improved nutrition in the developing world, and will be swamped in the future by technology: drugs / gene therapy / electronic augmentation / nanotech etc. > While tech like this being used to boost intelligence seems far away now, even if it took centuries it would still be a relative blink of the eye compared with the pace of evolution. This is why it’s pointless talking about future human evolution, at least in a pure biological sense, IMO. If we do develop drugs and/or therapies to boost IQ, we need to know who to target them too. Which mean, most likely, identifying people whose biological parents had low IQs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-we-best-deal-with-real-genetic-intelligence-differences-between-groups-in-society/709606.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-we-best-deal-with-real-genetic-intelligence-differences-between-groups-in-society/709606.md?page=3)