# How Would You Defend the Concept of a Benevolent and Omnipotent God? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2021, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878 "2021-03-14T14:08:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/181 "2021-03-15T20:08:58Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > For 4, that’s clearly wrong. Humans have already made the so-called best possible world better by eliminating smallpox and, nearly, polio. Indoor plumbing made a better world than the one without indoor plumbing. The very peaceful last 70 years or so is a much better place than the blood-soaked previous 20 centuries. I could go on. That’s a good one. The Bible would be a truly useful book if it had plumbing diagrams and some actual medical knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/182 "2021-03-15T20:17:03Z")
> [@velcro](#): > > The only reason I have to believe I will someday “grow up” and understand is because there are myths and stories that after you die, that happens. > Sorry, that is not a reason that would be acceptable in any sphere of society except religion. > If you can provide credible evidence that people eventually understand, please provide it. > If it is simply an article of faith for you, I will not try to change your mind. But please do not pretend that it is actually evidence that should suffice to convince me. Very well put. Like you, I too don’t know of anyone wise enough to understand God’s reasoning, so there’s no way I can provide any evidence of it. I am not trying to change anyone’s mind, nor to convince anyone of anything. (At least, I don’t think I am. You might disagree.) What I _ **am** _ trying to do is to suggest the _ **possibility** _ that if there is an afterlife (which I do believe there is), then at _ **that** _ point we might be able to understand these things. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/183 "2021-03-15T20:21:26Z")
The God of the Old Testament is far from benevolent. He’s actually a vicious SOB who slaughters children who make fun of a holy man’s baldness, commands followers to slay infidels, torments people to test their faith, and demands that you love him unquestionably or face eternal damnation. The reason people keep saying he’s a loving and benevolent God is because he will torment you tor eternity if you don’t. What a guy. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/184 "2021-03-15T20:57:02Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The reason people keep saying he’s a loving and benevolent God is because he will torment you tor eternity if you don’t. What a guy. It’s textbook gaslighting. Straight out of the power and control playbook for domestic violence. Once I saw it, I couldn’t unsee it. I have friends on social media who post Bible verses and I can no longer view it as anything other than, “He’s really loving and compassionate until I make him beat me.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/185 "2021-03-15T20:59:24Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > I prefer to look at the entire story, including what they experience after they die. Let me know when you have first hand accounts we can refer to. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/186 "2021-03-15T22:04:55Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > OK, then free will shouldn’t lead to pain and suffering, since there’s no such thing in heaven. First part, free will does not have to lead to pain and suffering, though it can. Second part, whatever is bound on earth is bound in heaven, pain and suffering exists, as well as spiritual forces of wickedness. > [@RitterSport](#): > > OK, but then you get to heaven for eternity? If so, your time on Earth and in hell is less than a rounding error, so why bother. You get to travel between them if you want to. Angels currently do. Well not so sure about the hell part but Jesus appeared to make such a trip. The rounding error you speak of is more of development than judgement. > [@RitterSport](#): > > Of course, we have no idea, even if it exists. Assuming for a moment that a baby is born and dies in pain, the soul is doing just fine, and then whisked up to heaven. Why have that baby be born at all? All it did was cost the parents pain and suffering (and, probably thousands of dollars). That last part may be part of it, the reason might be because that baby has an affect on other’s lives. Though I’m pretty sure it’s a case by case basis. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/187 "2021-03-15T22:09:41Z")
Your view of God and Christianity is pretty unique. The idea that there’s pain, suffering, and wickedness would certainly take some people by surprise. It’s difficult to argue with someone who has entirely their own idea of religious principles, so I’ll back out of this discussion with you. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/188 "2021-03-15T22:11:49Z")
> [@velcro](#): > > If you can provide credible evidence that people eventually understand, please provide it. > If it is simply an article of faith for you, I will not try to change your mind. But please do not pretend that it is actually evidence that should suffice to convince me. As I have experienced it, I believe it is not meant to be something that can be presented as evidence. It is made for a person to find though their own seeking. As such it is made by God not to be something that can be proven in the way you are demanding, nor is your way the way God wants it to be, and God set the whole thing up (though Jesus), so i don’t think you will find a crack in the armor. It is not something that will happen that way for most. However it is not something that is unknowable either, but God can and does prove Him/her self to us i undeniable ways, even for some revealing things of Himself, heaven and what is unseen. But evidence, yeah, ain’t going to happen your way sir. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/189 "2021-03-15T22:14:24Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Your view of God and Christianity is pretty unique. The idea that there’s pain, suffering, and wickedness would certainly take some people by surprise. It’s difficult to argue with someone who has entirely their own idea of religious principles, so I’ll back out of this discussion with you. You can if you wish, but that comes from the Bible, not me. Eph 6:12 IIRC ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/190 "2021-03-15T22:18:24Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > As I have experienced it, I believe it is not meant to be something that can be presented as evidence. It is made for a person to find though their own seeking. The trouble with the human mind is if one seeks something hard enough it will be found…whether it is actually there or not. > [@kanicbird](#): > > You can if you wish, but that comes from the Bible, not me. Eph 6:12 IIRC Your interpretation of a verse that you think agrees with your opinion. That interpretation is not universal and I can see where others might come to a different conclusion viewing other verses. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/191 "2021-03-15T22:21:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Your interpretation of a verse that you think agrees with your opinion. That interpretation is not universal and I can see where others might come to a different conclusion viewing other verses. How about war in heaven Rev 12:7-10, how about Satan in heaven (Job 1:6)? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/192 "2021-03-15T22:53:52Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > How about war in heaven Rev 12:7-10, how about Satan in heaven (Job 1:6)? Revelations is wildly subject to interpretation. As far as your second reference, this being an _Old_ Testament selection putting it in context as to what is going on helps: 6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. 7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? 9 Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. 11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. Then God turns Job’s family into a bunch of Redshirts (Just To Prove A Point!), easily replaceable at the end of the story, never to be mentioned, let alone mourned, again. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/193 "2021-03-15T23:02:08Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The God of the Old Testament is far from benevolent. He’s actually a vicious SOB who slaughters children who make fun of a holy man’s baldness, commands followers to slay infidels, torments people to test their faith, and demands that you love him unquestionably or face eternal damnation. > > The reason people keep saying he’s a loving and benevolent God is because he will torment you tor eternity if you don’t. What a guy. But the God of the Christian Bible is worse. After all, being drowned or being mauled by a bear is bad, but eternal torture is a lot worse. He just has a better PR department. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/194 "2021-03-15T23:26:53Z")
you can’t, because it is factually wrong. it would be like trying to defend the argument that automobiles are created by trees, that trees build cars when we aren’t looking. you can’t make a good argument for it because it’s not true. every argument about a benevolent God being in charge will have major holes. either God isn’t powerful or he isn’t good, there’s no way around it. the real answer as to why evil exists is because evolution is amoral and will pick any traits that enhance survival. and sadly pain is an effective deterrent from death oriented situations while evil behavior can be an effective behavioral mechanism to survive and thrive. as a result the world is full of pain and evil. that’s not all that exists, because pro social behavior is also beneficial to survival. but evolution doesn’t care, evolution invented both good and evil, love and pain, cruelty and cooperation. if evil and pain increase survival by 1% evolution will choose that. if love and happiness increase survival by 1% evolution will pick that. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/195 "2021-03-15T23:31:57Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > evolution invented both good and evil, love and pain, cruelty and cooperation. i Evolution invented love and pain, cruelty and cooperation. I say that it’s humans who invented good and evil. Doesn’t mean they’re not real. We’ve invented a lot of stuff that’s now real. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2021, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/196 "2021-03-16T00:31:04Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Then God turns Job’s family into a bunch of Redshirts (Just To Prove A Point!), easily replaceable at the end of the story, never to be mentioned, let alone mourned, again. Were they a different family considering Heb 11:19a: Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead,…" Note that it says: Job 42:11 All his brothers and sisters **and everyone who had known him before** came and ate with him in his house. They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the Lord had brought on him, and each one gave him a piece of silverand a gold ring. Bold mine, would not everyone who had know him before hint at his family considering Heb 11:19? Some people just want to assume an evil God, but here the restored family has the same number of members as before. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2021, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/197 "2021-03-16T00:46:50Z")
All of his family, little kids included, each gave him a piece of silver and a gold ring? Seems kind of unlikely to me. And for what seems like and may actually be the sixth time: what about making humans who like to torture other people? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2021, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/198 "2021-03-16T01:00:07Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Were they a different family considering Heb 11:19a: Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead,…" Using “reasoning” such as this could lead one to believe that NO innocents died in the Bible-Just assume that because God _could_ raise the dead, we can assume that is what actually happened. > [@kanicbird](#): > > They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the Lord had brought on him, and each one gave him a piece of silverand a gold ring. > > Bold mine, would not everyone who had know him before hint at his family considering Heb 11:19? Why in the world would his friends and neighbors reference Heb 11:19, and why would you think that, because the sons and daughters weren’t specifically mentioned by the mourners that could only indicate that they were alive? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2021, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/199 "2021-03-16T01:02:37Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > And for what seems like and may actually be the sixth time: what about making humans who like to torture other people? That could be blamed on mental illness…which could indicate that “free will” is limited. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2021, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/200 "2021-03-16T01:20:16Z")
And which wouldn’t change the implications of the posited God having created humans capable of that particular form of mental illness. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878.md?page=11)