# How Would You Defend the Concept of a Benevolent and Omnipotent God? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2021, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878 "2021-03-14T14:08:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/121 "2021-03-15T16:26:54Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Isn’t that exactly what supposedly happens in Heaven? Only for those who have earned it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/122 "2021-03-15T16:27:13Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > But the fact that you know topping it with shit would be bad for you is really important to you. So you are happy when it is not topped with shit. WTFFF? I don’t enjoy chocolate ice cream because it isn’t covered in shit, and if the possibility of such a thing happening _never_ occurred to me I would enjoy it just as much. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/123 "2021-03-15T16:28:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Isn’t that exactly what supposedly happens in Heaven? if so, then _can_ have one without the other. I never said I believed in heaven. I do not believe in heaven. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/124 "2021-03-15T16:29:16Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > Only for those who have earned it. 1. So it IS possible. 2. I don’t jump through hoops if I don’t know what is on the other side. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/125 "2021-03-15T16:30:27Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I think Epicurus nailed it. > > Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. > Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. God could have prevented evil by not creating anything in the first place. If there is Nothing, there is no evil. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/126 "2021-03-15T16:30:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I don’t enjoy chocolate ice cream because it isn’t covered in shit, OK, I see. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/127 "2021-03-15T16:33:28Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > God could have prevented evil by not creating anything in the first place. If there is Nothing, there is no evil. Is that the _only_ way a benevolent and all-powerful god could prevent evil? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/128 "2021-03-15T16:43:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is that the _only_ way a benevolent and all-powerful god could prevent evil? That’s the question, isn’t it? Could there be a world without evil, or even with less evil, while still preserving other desirable qualities? We’re back to whether this is “the best of all possible worlds.” I am of the opinion that God’s power does not extend to doing what is logically impossible. So, for example, even God could not find a [map that is not four-colorable](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_color_theorem). God could not find [positive integer solutions to **a^n + b^n = c^n** with n \> 2](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermat%27s_Last_Theorem). God could not produce a [formal axiomatic system capable of modeling basic arithmetic in which all true propositions are provable.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_theorems#First_incompleteness_theorem) And I am at least open to the possibility that a world without evil (but with the other qualities we want in a world) is similarly logically impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/129 "2021-03-15T16:47:38Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > And I am at least open to the possibility that a world without evil (but with the other qualities we want in a world) is similarly logically impossible. Perhaps, but that still leaves the possibility of a world with _less_ evil…and if _that_ isn’t possible, then why should we even try to better our lives and the lives of others? If God can’t do it, who am I to even try? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/130 "2021-03-15T16:47:41Z")
“Evil” is a bit of a simplification here. It would be trivial to have a world where cancer doesn’t exist, for instance. It wouldn’t change anything meaningful about our world. Or how about those parasites that burrow into children’s eyes blinding them? That isn’t logically impossible to exclude from an otherwise identical world. ---
**Author:** ![Dark\_Sponge](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dark_sponge/32/121_2.png) [@Dark\_Sponge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dark_Sponge)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/131 "2021-03-15T16:47:46Z")
That’s a great question. The problem lies in definition of God’s benevolence. I’d argue that if God is truly omnipotent and benevolent it would be God’s duty to stop individuals from hurting others (i.e. punish evil). And it seems like this would be pretty easy for an omnipotent being to do. God could simply stop the individual right before they committed the evil actions each time. Or stop the evil action for having any effect. Or even just remove all desire to do things which would hurt others. Existence in this universe would be very different than our own. We would, in effect, have our actions or thoughts partially controlled by the omnipotent being. If we tried to make a choice which hurt others it ‘wouldn’t count.’ The action would be impossible in one form or another. The Christian view is that God refuses to control humans’ behavior in this way. And because He refuses to do so His remaining choice is to punish those who hurt others after the fact. But God (being benevolent) didn’t like this option so He came up with the concept of one individual taking the punishment for someone else. This way the evil actions (hurting others) still get punished but only one person has to suffer rather than everyone. The problem then becomes who should be the one who suffers for everyone else? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/132 "2021-03-15T16:50:07Z")
> [@Dark\_Sponge](#): > > He came up with the concept of one individual taking the punishment for someone else. Which goes against everything we are taught about the concept of justice. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/133 "2021-03-15T16:51:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Perhaps, but that still leaves the possibility of a world with _less_ evil…and if _that_ isn’t possible, then why should we even try to better our lives and the lives of others? Again, by “world” I mean the totality throughout time, not just the present situation. So, arguably, a world in which we have the ability to better our lives and the lives of others is preferable to a world in which we cannot. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/134 "2021-03-15T16:53:04Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > It would be trivial to have a world where cancer doesn’t exist, for instance. I’m not so sure that would be trivial, but I don’t know the science. How would that work? Cells can’t mutate? Then what drives evolution? ---
**Author:** ![Dark\_Sponge](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dark_sponge/32/121_2.png) [@Dark\_Sponge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dark_Sponge)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/135 "2021-03-15T16:55:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > > [@Dark\_Sponge](#): > > > > He came up with the concept of one individual taking the punishment for someone else. > > Which goes against everything we are taught about the concept of justice. Yes, it seems terribly unfair. But if (as Christianity teaches) He chooses Himself to be the one who gets punished He is still benevolent. He’s allowing his benevolence to ‘bend the rules’ and taking the punishment on Himself so humans don’t have to endure it. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/136 "2021-03-15T17:00:56Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > > [@Lobohan](#): > > > > It would be trivial to have a world where cancer doesn’t exist, for instance. > > I’m not so sure that would be trivial, but I don’t know the science. How would that work? Cells can’t mutate? Then what drives evolution? You think an omnipotent God can’t create a universe without cancer? What a worthless God that would be. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/137 "2021-03-15T17:05:05Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You think an omnipotent God can’t create a universe without cancer? What a worthless God that would be. Cancer is a part of what makes it so great. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/138 "2021-03-15T17:07:03Z")
I was feeling really down, and questioning my faith, but then I remembered that children regularly die gasping in absolute agony of an unnecessary disease, then I felt at peace. Praise be. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/139 "2021-03-15T17:10:41Z")
Sorry I should have said “what if Cancer is a part of what makes it so great.” ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/140 "2021-03-15T17:12:52Z")
How? If I pull a Truman Show and raise someone in a fake reality where cancer doesn’t exist, can they know happiness? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878.md?page=8)