# How Would You Defend the Concept of a Benevolent and Omnipotent God? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2021, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878 "2021-03-14T14:08:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/141 "2021-03-15T17:17:00Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > If I pull a Truman Show and raise someone in a fake reality where cancer doesn’t exist, can they know happiness? Oh no I don’t mean that, I mean that cancer might be a negative by-product of a system that needs cancer in order to survive. You have heard of Co2 right? ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/142 "2021-03-15T17:17:56Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > “Evil” is a bit of a simplification here. It would be trivial to have a world where cancer doesn’t exist, for instance. If we were in such a world, would you be pointing to whichever of the remaining diseases was the worst? Or perhaps we ARE in such a world - We are totally unaware of the diseases that are even worse than cancer, because God made sure to not let them exist in this world. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/143 "2021-03-15T17:20:30Z")
Okay. I would suggest that nothing is a required by-product for an omnipotent being. If God is severely limited, and this is the best he could possibly do, fine. He’s not omnipotent then. ---
**Author:** ![Jay\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Jay\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay_Z)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/144 "2021-03-15T17:21:23Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > How? > > If I pull a Truman Show and raise someone in a fake reality where cancer doesn’t exist, can they know happiness? The Garden Of Eden story and The Truman Show both featured rebellions against that sort of god. That people would chafe under such a god, resent it, and want freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/145 "2021-03-15T17:21:43Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > > [@Lobohan](#): > > > > “Evil” is a bit of a simplification here. It would be trivial to have a world where cancer doesn’t exist, for instance. > > If we were in such a world, would you be pointing to whichever of the remaining diseases was the worst? > > Or perhaps we ARE in such a world - We are totally unaware of the diseases that are even worse than cancer, because God made sure to not let them exist in this world. Unending agony and death are a pretty weak-ass place to draw the line IMHO. If the only diseases were mild discomfort, like a head-cold, that’s one thing. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/146 "2021-03-15T17:23:39Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > If I pull a Truman Show and raise someone in a fake reality where cancer doesn’t exist, can they know happiness? Absolutely un-knowable from such a strange premise. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/147 "2021-03-15T17:23:59Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > > [@Lobohan](#): > > > > You think an omnipotent God can’t create a universe without cancer? What a worthless God that would be. > > Cancer is a part of what makes it so great. - It’s not great at first but it grows on you. ✋ 🧺 ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/148 "2021-03-15T17:24:06Z")
> [@Jay\_Z](#): > > > [@Lobohan](#): > > > > How? > > > > If I pull a Truman Show and raise someone in a fake reality where cancer doesn’t exist, can they know happiness? > > The Garden Of Eden story and The Truman Show both featured rebellions against that sort of god. That people would chafe under such a god, resent it, and want freedom. Freedom doesn’t necessitate cancer tho. Free will means I can kick you. It doesn’t mean that cancer is somehow necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/149 "2021-03-15T17:24:42Z")
It’s perfectly knowable. The answer is yes, they can know happiness. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/150 "2021-03-15T17:24:50Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > If the only diseases were mild discomfort, like a head-cold, that’s one thing. My point is that if that was the worst pain in our experience, we’d complain about it every bit as much as we complain about cancer now. We would get a head cold, and we’d cry, “OMG! This is the WORST!” - and it would be very accurately true. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/151 "2021-03-15T17:29:15Z")
Sure. But if you were designing a world, you wouldn’t make sentient people suffer unspeakably until they die. So either you’re a better person than God, or God doesn’t have the power to meet the level of moral goodness you have. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/152 "2021-03-15T17:31:34Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > But if you were designing a world, you wouldn’t make sentient people suffer unspeakably until they die. I prefer to look at the entire story, including what they experience after they die. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/153 "2021-03-15T17:32:27Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > > [@Isamu](#): > > > > > [@Lobohan](#): > > > > > > You think an omnipotent God can’t create a universe without cancer? What a worthless God that would be. > > > > Cancer is a part of what makes it so great. - > > It’s not great at first but it grows on you. > ✋ 🧺 [https://imgur.com/a/ym2Fso6](https://imgur.com/a/ym2Fso6) ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/154 "2021-03-15T17:37:01Z")
Okay, so you think suffering doesn’t count. That’s fine. You should go to the pediatric cancer ward and tell those whiners to stop complaining. ETA: We’ve established that _you_ aren’t omnibenevolent. The same should apply to God. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/155 "2021-03-15T17:40:23Z")
Why would I tell them to stop complaining? That wouldn’t be compassionate. I have confidence that there is some sort of purpose behind the pain I feel, even if I can’t understand it. But for me to tell that to someone else would just make their pain worse. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/156 "2021-03-15T17:43:06Z")
There is no purpose to the pain caused by cancer. Or MS. Or fetal alcohol syndrome. Or rickets. Or parasites that make children blind. It’s just stuff that happens because God either didn’t have the power to eliminate them, or didn’t care to. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/157 "2021-03-15T17:45:18Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > There is no purpose to the pain caused by cancer. Or MS. Or fetal alcohol syndrome. Or rickets. Or parasites that make children blind. No purpose that you can think of. None that I can think of either. But I concede that God might have such a purpose. For me to understand things from God’s perspective is like a three-year old trying to understand things from a parent’s perspective. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/158 "2021-03-15T17:52:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The number of people that have both lost more and suffered more are uncountable, and they got _much_ worse than a three day suspension from life. Did they? See my post about physical pain vs emotional pain. I suspect that pain of Gods rejection would be the ultimate pain. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/159 "2021-03-15T17:52:57Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > > [@Lobohan](#): > > > > There is no purpose to the pain caused by cancer. Or MS. Or fetal alcohol syndrome. Or rickets. Or parasites that make children blind. > > No purpose that you can think of. None that I can think of either. But I concede that God might have such a purpose. For me to understand things from God’s perspective is like a three-year old trying to understand things from a parent’s perspective. Mysterious ways. Meaningless. You understand morality. Either God is cruel, or He’s weak. You’re just saying, “Maybe he’s neither cruel or weak, because _magic_!” I have no problem with a weak God. Hey, do the best you can. Same as me. I have no problem with the sadistic monster described in the bible. The problem comes with the utterly asinine argument that He’s both omnipotent and omnibenevolent. Which is impossible, given the universe we find ourselves in. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878/160 "2021-03-15T17:59:50Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You’re just saying, “Maybe he’s neither cruel or weak, because _magic_ !” What do you think of the comparison from children to adults to God? Why is it so difficult for some people to accept the possibility that some things could be beyond our understanding? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-defend-the-concept-of-a-benevolent-and-omnipotent-god/937878.md?page=9)