# how would you explain this "ghost" sighting?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-explain-this-ghost-sighting/259070
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [August 9, 2004, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-explain-this-ghost-sighting/259070 "2004-08-09T19:11:28Z")
**Posts on this page:** 19
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2004, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-explain-this-ghost-sighting/259070/41 "2004-08-10T15:55:48Z")
> [@Sentient](#):
>
> I’m not quite sure whether you’re going through the motions for the sake of it here, Lib, but I will endeavour to restate what I think we’ve agree many times in the past.
Nope. If I were to detect that this were nothing more than motion-going, I’d say so, just as I did in that unfortunate thread that the OP had abandoned, where you and I found ourselves about to co-write a Platonic dialog before we stopped and said, hey, we’ve got better things to do. Here, I believe that there is an important point to be made about the difference between dismissing an explanation because the evidence doesn’t suit us, and offering an explanation because of the evidence that we find. That’s why my opening comment in this thread supported the OP’s suggestion that the ghost event was likely something ordinary and natural that merely appeared to be a ghost event, but then followed that almost immediately by pointing out Cisco’s logical fallacy. It is a very important point that whatever we might offer in the way of explanation is no more logically valid than what the witness of the ghost offered. To me, it is _probable_ that there was a natural explanation for what happened; however, it is _probable_ that I won’t win the lottery, and yet I might. As your and my discussion progressed, I felt that two more no less important points emerged as well — namely, (1) that it makes no sense whatsoever to demand empirical evidence of a supernatural entity anymore than it makes sense to demand to see the corners of a circle, and (2) that _all_ evidence for empirical events is either circumstantial or anecdotal. I’m not picking nits here. These are critical distinctions.
> [@](#):
>
> The central point is whether or not there is a real phenomenon requiring explanation here. When I say that my hypothetical appearance would be “real”, I mean that my appearance would have some physically detectable consequence, such as light, sound or motion of objects. If all we have is dreams, hallucinations and misremembered events with no physical manifestations, I suggest we don’t have anything real at all.
I agree. However, all the consequences that you describe are _physical_ and therefore are necessarily explainable by physical causes. If there is some light, then it _has to be the case_ that there were quantum level decays. If there is some sound, then it _has to be the case_ that something vibrated. And so on. The point is that if ghosts are encountered only in this way, then they are not supernatural at all — they are natural. They are a part of the universe. As I explained before, merely being unable to find a flashlight or a violin when you saw your light or heard your sound does not constitute evidence of any supernatural entity. It _can_ not. That’s because a supernatural entity, once again, is not detectable by empirical means. We must consider the definitions of our terms. Supernatural means outside of nature. Now, that said, we may see evidence of a supernatural _event_ (as opposed to a supernatural entity), but that evidence is indistinguishable from evidence of a _natural_ event. It really makes no metaphysical difference whether light is caused by random photon emissions or whether angels wrestle with electrons until their orbits collapse — either way, a light shines.
> [@](#):
>
> Hurricanes and atoms have physically detectable consequences, beyond reasonable doubt.
Sure they do, but so what? These ghost sightings always have detectable consequences as well, such as flames shooting out of fireplaces and wailing coming out of the walls. What you said was that if you were a ghost, you’d make certain to appear regularly like clockwork. What I said was that that would not prove you were a ghost since your appearances would be indistinguishable from ordinary natural phenomena that we simply do not yet understand.
> [@](#):
>
> There is, surely reasonable doubt about whether the same can be said of ghosts. The question is if these inexplicable physical effects in everyday situations are so common, how come they seem so difficult to actually detect?
They _aren’t_ difficult to detect. People detect them all the time. But you have to _be there_ when they occur or else find circumstantial evidence later. But either way, you cannot know, for example, whether the chair moved because of some natural cause or some supernatural cause since movement is itself evidence that is _empirical_. Every event in the universe always leaves empirical evidence. That’s why science chooses empiricism as the tool with which to examine the universe. But the evidence is _of the events only_, and says nothing about their metaphysical agency.
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### Author:  [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2004, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-explain-this-ghost-sighting/259070/42 "2004-08-10T15:57:00Z")
Stories like Jen’s are always somewhat disturbing to me on a several levels.
For one thing, I don’t understand why or how it is that people can suspend all the things we know about our physical world and so very willingly accept supernatural explanations for events so easily. The world is already out of our immediate control enough in it’s natural state. Why anyone would actively look for more personal examples of this, especially on a supernatural level, is something I simply don’t understand.
Next, when I hear stories like Jen’s either first or second hand, I _know_ the story teller is not telling the truth and I wonder what their motives are. Are they trying to convince me or themselves? Do they believe their own story? If yes, are they crazy, deluded, ignorant? If no, are they simply dishonest or out to achieve some goal through me or others?
Also I wonder if this willing suspension of what is known for the unknown is basic to human nature and therefore it is a hopeless dream that we can overcome it. Even education can’t seem to completely overcome the human desire to believe in the unbelievable.
Another thing that strikes me in Jens’s story is the fear people have of books! This is a theme I see repeated over and over. Some cling to the Bible or whatever with a mighty force that simply defies logic or reject books as ‘evil’ with a vehemence that is astounding. I think that stems directly from our lack of critical thinking skills but I find that aspect particularly scary.
Well, I guess I’m just rambling now.
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### Author:  [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2004, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-explain-this-ghost-sighting/259070/43 "2004-08-10T16:11:14Z")
> [@](#):
>
> a supernatural entity, once again, is not detectable by empirical means.
Agreed. We can stop looking for them, then.
> [@](#):
>
> we may see evidence of a supernatural event (as opposed to a supernatural entity), but that evidence is indistinguishable from evidence of a natural event.
Agreed. We can stop looking for supernatural events, then.
> [@](#):
>
> your appearances would be indistinguishable from ordinary natural phenomena that we simply do not yet understand.
Agreed.
If the natural-phenomena-which-we-don’t-understand associated with ghosts occurs so regularly, why is it so difficult to find verified examples of it?
> [@](#):
>
> They aren’t difficult to detect. People detect them all the time.
I suggest that they _don’t_ - that there _was or is_ no natural-phenomena-which-we-don’t-understand there to be detected - but that is a bald assertion rather than my original question: _why_ are reports of natural-phenomena-which-we-don’t-understand confined to such limited and unverifiable conditions?
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### Author:  [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2004, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-explain-this-ghost-sighting/259070/44 "2004-08-10T16:24:21Z")
One more point to consider is that this event supposedly happend in the mid 80s. About twenty years ago. Assuming she’s not making it all up, it’s entirely possible that over time a minor and perhaps slightly creepy incident has been blown up in Jen’s mind to something paranormal. Maybe the flames didn’t literally “shoot between them,” but some sparks or glowing ash popped out of the fire. The screams could have been wind in the chimney and as has been pointed out, if she was in a primed state of mind she could have thought it was something it wasn’t.
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### Author:  [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2004, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-explain-this-ghost-sighting/259070/45 "2004-08-10T16:38:30Z")
> [@xtisme](#):
>
> I’ve burned a lot of stuff and seem some pretty wierd things (we have a large fireplace at my house, and when I was younger we didn’t have electric heat)…colors, wierd smokes, even flare ups that were quite impressive. As to the noise, again, nothing that mysterious…I’ve heard a lot of wierd things when burning stuff in the fireplace. Mix that in with a charged atmosphere (the couple was fighthing) and the psychological impact of the ‘black magic book’ (your friend being a devoted Catholic probably has a belief in ‘black magic’) and you have all the elements you need.
Also worth noting is the fact that human memory is pretty frail and suspect to large alterations. One amusing example is that one-third of the subjects in a study _actually remembered_ seeing Bugs Bunny at Disneyworld after being shown a phony brochure that had a picture of Bugs on it. I’m also skeptical of the friend’s skepticism. Perhaps he had the book for research or amusment, but it seems more likely that he had supernatural belief, just not the Catholic type. It would be quite easy for the memory to grow from unusual flames & burning noise to something outlandish. Also worth noting is that certainty of memory does not translate into accuracy: People who are confident in their memory are no more accurate than those who aren’t.
To look for research on memory, I’d start by googling for “Elizabeth Loftus,” or perhaps “social phychology” and “eyewitness.” There has been a lot of work done on the reliability of eyewitness testimony.
But, I am curious about this, and I don’t know much Catholic theology myself: IIRC in Revelation it is stated that everybody who had died will rise at the same time and that for those who’ve died in the past, the period between death and re-birth will pass by instantly, as if they were sleeping. How does that jibe with ghosts? If the dead are all waiting quietly and comotose for judgement day to come along, then how is it that they’re out there doing _who knows what_ between the covers of some book?
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2004, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-explain-this-ghost-sighting/259070/46 "2004-08-10T16:58:33Z")
Ghosts don’t play into Catholic theology- at least not the traditional notion of the spirits of dead human beings. She probably thought the screams were from demons who are sometimes conceived as evil spirits. Why demons would scream about being thrown in a fire remains a mystery.
If this person believed that somehow this book was actually capturing human souls or something then she’s just off the Catholic reservation (which contradicts her own dogmatic “moral.”)
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### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2004, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-explain-this-ghost-sighting/259070/47 "2004-08-10T17:43:15Z")
Why on earth would the screams of Cthulhoid extradimensional creatures turn someone **Catholic**? I mean, seems pretty obvious to me that a sorcerer school in the ways of Al-Rhazad had bound a couple alien beings into a book; on their release, the escaped into their own dimension, and the screaming was nothing more than the sound of air passing through an impossibly thin dimensional vortex into a vacuum. Far from confirming Catholicism, this should have demolished her belief in a universe created by a benevolent God.
The moral of this story: even if there is a supernatural explanation, that don’t mean Jesus was involved.
Daniel
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### Author:  [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2004, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-explain-this-ghost-sighting/259070/48 "2004-08-10T17:52:37Z")
**filmyak**'s particular turns of phrase in the recounting of this story (“strand of flame”, references to a generic book of “black magic”, “stopped believeing in atheism”, etc.) all smacked of a classic urban legend to me as well.
So, given that every urban legend imaginable is recounted on the web somewhere, shortly after reading the OP I Googled every significant word in the plot.
To my surprise, I came up empty. The closest I came up with was a
[plot summary](http://www.terrortrap.com/undead/evildead/) of the 1982 horror film, The Evil Dead (which I never saw):
> [@](#):
>
> While being continuously pummeled by them, Ash gets a hold of the Book of the Dead and tosses it into the fireplace. Cheryl, Scotty, and the book all decompose, with a final plea to join them.
Close, but no cigar.
Scanning through the rest of the thread, however, I find out this happened to “Jen” in the mid-1980s.
Well now, the film may have been made in 1982, but the night when a bunch of people in my freshman dorm watched it, with many eagerly anticipating seeing this underground cult classic, was in 1985. The screams through the wall were almost deafening, and for weeks, nay, months, afterward, those in attendance, splatter fans to a one, still talked about how badly the film had freaked them out.
My guess is that Jen saw the film, and reworked (deliberately or subconsciously) the penultimate sequence into her own little personal urban legend used for proselytization purposes.
I ask these questions:
1. Who started the converstaion about religion?
2. What were her exact words in describing her reluctance to tell you the story? Could they have been an attempt to build anticipation?
3. Do you want to get into Jen’s pants, or is there any other factor that might have clouded your ability to realize she might have been manipulating the conversation?
Whether she believes her story herself, or merely expects you to believe it, she’s someone I wouldn’t recommend spending a lot more time around.
Some people are just fucked up, and need to invent stories about themselves. I had a girlfriend in college, in the mid-1980s as it happens, who related in great detail her summer liaison with a member of the French military. I was quite impressed by her worldliness, until I heard of a book called “Summer of My German Soldier”.
“Jen” wouldn’t be from Chicago , would she?
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### Author:  [@CC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CC)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2004, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-explain-this-ghost-sighting/259070/49 "2004-08-10T19:24:55Z")
[QUOTE=filmyak]
and that it was so intense her boyfriend stopped believing in atheism and went back to his Catholic roots.
QUOTE]
This is the part of the OP that tickles me. Her boyfriend no longer believes in atheism. Apparently, the events of the moment even changed his belief in the existence of other beliefs. I wonder if he also stopped believing in democracy or gravity. Oooooooh. This is soooo scary.
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### Author:  [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2004, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-explain-this-ghost-sighting/259070/50 "2004-08-10T19:36:44Z")
If I were a skeptic, I’d look at a situation where someone dramatically threw a book in the fireplace and flames shot out, accompanied by screams, and I’d think “Dude put a bottlerocket in the book for a joke and has now spent 20 years lying to the girl so that she won’t kick his butt.”
But on second thought, evil spirits are \* way \* more likely.
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### Author:  [@filmyak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmyak)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2004, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-explain-this-ghost-sighting/259070/51 "2004-08-11T01:19:05Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#):
>
> Why on earth would the screams of Cthulhoid extradimensional creatures turn someone **Catholic**?
They were both already Catholic. One had just openly come out as a non-believer. Then he went back to believing after the incident.
Why? I dunno. IMO all religious belief is based on skewed thinking, so I guess he just ran back to what he felt was safe/had grown up with.
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### Author:  [@filmyak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmyak)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2004, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-explain-this-ghost-sighting/259070/52 "2004-08-11T01:28:48Z")
> [@scotandrsn](#):
>
> My guess is that Jen saw the film, and reworked (deliberately or subconsciously) the penultimate sequence into her own little personal urban legend used for proselytization purposes.
LOL. As a fan of Evil Dead myself, I can appreciate that. Not sure if she’s seen it, though I could ask. But from knowing her, I really don’t think she was trying to convert me, she was just telling me, from her POV, why she so seriously believed it. In fact, she believs she was there to help bring a straying member (Mark) back into the fold, and she specifically doesn’t want to go through anything like that again.
It really was just a friendly chat, not an attempt to brainwash me.
> [@](#):
>
> 1. Who started the converstaion about religion?
> 2. What were her exact words in describing her reluctance to tell you the story? Could they have been an attempt to build anticipation?
> 3. Do you want to get into Jen’s pants, or is there any other factor that might have clouded your ability to realize she might have been manipulating the conversation?
No, not in Chicago. And the conversation started because she’s my wedding planner, so I’m not trying to get into her pants either. =) My fiancee and I (and Jen) were having dinner together after checking out some locations. “Jen” has become a friend of ours, we get along really well with her and her husband, and we all are getting a laugh out of a “nice Catholic girl” helping us plan a wedding which is going to be totally devoid of religious trappings of any kind.
During dinner, she asked about my belief system – I’ve been to the international skeptics convention, am a diehard believer in the absolute separation of church and state, etc. – and I asked about hers. She told us her story then, and for her it has a lot of meaning.
I’m certainly not trying to beat her over the head with my lack of belief, but she asked what I thought about it and I said that without being there, I couldn’t say much, but basically I thought the book’s impact dislodged something and a sound from the fire was mistaken as a series of screams. I’ll never be able to change her mind, she won’t change mine, but I was very curious to see what the Dopers had to suggest on the matter.
Been an interesting chat so far, that’s for sure!
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### Author:  [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2004, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-explain-this-ghost-sighting/259070/53 "2004-08-11T06:57:41Z")
I don’t have any reason to dismiss the existence of spirits or ethereal beings.
The possibility that some strange energy form can survive with impressions of human memories after the death of the body isn’t necessarily outlandish to me.
Do I have any proof of it? No, of course I don’t.
Do I doubt this story? Yes, very much so.
But while part of me is a skeptic, another part of me never dismisses anything completely. It is foolish and arrogant to believe one knows everything, or to even assume that accepted rules or assumptions are applicable in every situation.
For example, the laws of Newtonian physics do not apply universally, something that would have sent many a 19th century scientist off his rocker.
In this particular story I’m going to bet it was just a strange fire sound, and human imagination.
But I feel no reason to instantly label as idiot anyone who thinks there may be more than what meets the eye to existence.
As far as Catholicism. I don’t see how a spirit would prove or disprove a religion. Ghosts could exist and there could still be no “heavenly beings” or “alter planes of afterlife existence.”
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2004, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-explain-this-ghost-sighting/259070/54 "2004-08-11T07:23:54Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#):
>
> It is foolish and arrogant to believe one knows everything, or to even assume that accepted rules or assumptions are applicable in every situation.
I hear this a lot when people don’t like a skeptical point of view. It’s entirely out of whack. Think for a minute about how many assumptions were involved in “Jen’s” interpretation of events. The skeptical people are just saying “there is no evidence to support this, I have never seen any, and until such time as I do I am definitely not going to believe it.” That isn’t saying that you know everything by a long shot. It’s stating that this event doesn’t jive with our knowledge experiences and that “Jen’s” explanation is not the most sensible based on what we know.
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### Author:  [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2004, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-explain-this-ghost-sighting/259070/55 "2004-08-11T07:33:55Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> I hear this a lot when people don’t like a skeptical point of view. It’s entirely out of whack. Think for a minute about how many assumptions were involved in “Jen’s” interpretation of events. The skeptical people are just saying “there is no evidence to support this, I have never seen any, and until such time as I do I am definitely not going to believe it.” That isn’t saying that you know everything by a long shot. It’s stating that this event doesn’t jive with our knowledge experiences and that “Jen’s” explanation is not the most sensible based on what we know.
Yes, and I also said that I doubt this particular story. And I think after a few seconds of review we find a lot of reason to doubt this story.
What I was saying is, it is arrogance and in fact hurtful to our progress as a people to dismiss EVERYTHING that isn’t explained by what we _already_ know, out of hand.
If the Greeks and other Ancient peoples had never stopped to think, “How did this rock come to exist?” “What is the whole world shaped like?” “What is the sky” et cetra we would still be in the bronze age. People questioning, not dismissing, the unexplainable is the basis for civilization.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2004, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-explain-this-ghost-sighting/259070/56 "2004-08-11T07:44:57Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#):
>
> What I was saying is, it is arrogance and in fact hurtful to our progress as a people to dismiss EVERYTHING that isn’t explained by what we _already_ know, out of hand.
But I don’t think that’s what has been done here at all.
> [@](#):
>
> If the Greeks and other Ancient peoples had never stopped to think, “How did this rock come to exist?” “What is the whole world shaped like?” “What is the sky” et cetra we would still be in the bronze age.
Accepting things without proof is at least equally damaging to progress.
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### Author:  [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2004, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-explain-this-ghost-sighting/259070/57 "2004-08-11T07:55:33Z")
“Not rejecting out of hand” isn’t “accepting.”
For anyone who used logic to cast doubt on the story, that is fine.
But there were several people who just called bullshit instantly without giving any reasoning.
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### Author:  [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2004, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-explain-this-ghost-sighting/259070/58 "2004-08-11T07:55:47Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> I hear this a lot when people don’t like a skeptical point of view. It’s entirely out of whack. Think for a minute about how many assumptions were involved in “Jen’s” interpretation of events. The skeptical people are just saying “there is no evidence to support this, I have never seen any, and until such time as I do I am definitely not going to believe it.” That isn’t saying that you know everything by a long shot. It’s stating that this event doesn’t jive with our knowledge experiences and that “Jen’s” explanation is not the most sensible based on what we know.
Many a story told to me by friends over twenty years seem to morph into incredulity like the character in “Big Fish” 😃 :o :eek:
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### Author:  [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2004, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-explain-this-ghost-sighting/259070/59 "2004-08-11T23:53:29Z")
> [@Liberal](#):
>
> … lots of ghosts appear as regularly as clockwork. Stocken prison’s 'hanged man”, for example, reportedly appears on December 22 every year at exactly 2:45 in the afternoon.
If this event recurs regularly at the same time and place, it shouldn’t be too hard for someone to capture it on film or videotape. Has anyone?
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