# How would you fix American policing? (UPDATED)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-fix-american-policing-updated/847555
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [February 6, 2020, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-fix-american-policing-updated/847555 "2020-02-06T18:35:18Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 8
### Author:  [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)
#### Post date: [February 18, 2020, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-fix-american-policing-updated/847555/141 "2020-02-18T20:29:02Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#):
>
> And of course you are ignoring a couple of key points.
>
> 1. Police are shown repeatedly escalating the situation changing the situation from one where force is not reasonable into one that is.
> 2. Police, DAs, Judges and Juries contribute to the culture of condoning officer behavior even when not reasonable.
Damn, I just can’t keep up.
Police de-escalate thousands of times every day. You are never going to see video of that. Its boring and nothing sensational. The reason you see videos of cops not behaving perfectly is because it is unusual and sensational. Not all cops are perfect and some are far from it. That small minority should be dealt with. Not by the mob but by the system. If you don’t like the system, do what you can to change it. Don’t paint with a broad brush.
---
### Author:  [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)
#### Post date: [February 18, 2020, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-fix-american-policing-updated/847555/142 "2020-02-18T21:14:02Z")
> [@pkbites](#):
>
> No, there is no problem with policing in America. At least no problem within the scope of this thread. The almost 1 million LEOs in this country make millions of public contacts every single day. And you foolishly think the dozen or so questionable situations you’ve cited to are representative of the average police/community contact. You come across like someone who believes they are going to win the lottery because they want to believe they are going to win the lottery and one time they got 4 numbers so there is your proof. :rolleyes:
>
> Officers hardly ever get into shooting situations yet you post as if it happens all the time. So your own well is poisoned yet you insist we debate based on your false beliefs that have no data to support them. It’s like arguing with a mentally ill person who gets pissed that you won’t acknowledge the invisible pink elephant in the room.
>
> And your solution to a non-existent problem is insane.
>
> The real problem in this country is the lack of consequences for criminal actions. Criminals are allowed to plea down charges, serve reduced sentences, plea down to an ordinance violation over a criminal act, etc… The revolving door justice system gave the government an excuse to try and create a police state by passing endless laws and spending more money on enforcement, prevention, and so on.
Police officer that has admitted to letting other police officers off when they break the law thinks police officers are doing just fine.
But all criminals are bad, and we’re too lenient in spite of world leading incarceration.
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> In 99% of those, they are shooting at the police. Now, sure there’s something wrong, but it aint necessarily with the police.
Cite required.
---
### Author:  [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)
#### Post date: [February 18, 2020, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-fix-american-policing-updated/847555/143 "2020-02-18T21:48:47Z")
> [@DirkHardly](#):
>
> …First of all, I never asserted anywhere that police fatalities would necessarily increase dramatically under any theoretical change in their lethal force policies. I only referred to the potential cost to civilian bystanders even if one believes the police should submit themselves to the risk of only returning fire when fired upon. Go ahead, go back and re-read my posts and find where I asserted anything like you claim.
You’re correct that you didn’t say that. It was **pkbites** who [keeps](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=22138184#post22138184) [saying](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=22145060#post22145060) that any change to the current use of force policies will inevitably lead to more dead cops.
You’re the one who evidently thinks that the only risk to civilian bystanders is from criminals who might shoot them if the police don’t gun them down first. This [isn’t the case](https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article238422053.html).
> [@Miami Herald](#):
>
> …In last year’s fatal shooting of Alexander Carballido in West Miami-Dade, 18 officers fired over 300 times. Newly released body-camera footage shows a scene that looks like a Call of Duty video game: a long, deafening roar of gunfire, officers shooting dangerously close to one another from behind, and even one cop firing from his window as he tried to drive.
Here’s even [more examples](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contagious_shooting#Examples) of police putting bystanders (and fellow officers) at risk far more than the alleged perpetrators. In many of these cases, police fired dozens or even hundreds of times indiscriminately at suspects, killing bystanders and fellow officers.
> [@DirkHardly](#):
>
> …Do you actually think there’s an academic study out there that uses vague, ill-defined terms like “trigger-happy”? See, they like to use precisely defined terms and actual data to support their conclusions.
You are the one who doesn’t like news media cites and offered to “provide actual, relevant, academic cites” that will disprove virtually everything that I am claiming is wrong. So where are these studies?
And if it pains you so, replace “trigger-happy” with “excessive use of deadly force.”
> [@DirkHardly](#):
>
> …You on the other hand keep on making bare assertions and resorting to ridiculous hyperbole. And did you miss the part where your “cites” weren’t actually cites? One benefit of all that education is I know what actual cites are. Another is that I know that virtually everything you are claiming is wrong, and I can certainly provide actual, relevant, academic cites to prove that (more in the vein of academic journals and not so much… newspapers, for instance). So, by all means, pick one of your ridiculous assertions that you have provided no meaningful evidence for and I’ll gladly disprove it with, you know, actual evidence.
Still waiting…
Apparently all that you have is your own “bare assertions” that I am wrong with nothing to back it up. At least I provided some cites, even though you don’t like them. You haven’t provided anything other than refutations.
> [@DirkHardly](#):
>
> …Also, how exactly do you think this hypothetical experiment would play out? Do you actually think the scientists would go around to various police agencies and ask them to change their lethal force policies “just to see what happens”? And then just count the victims and compare the data? Of course to get a meaningful data set they’re going to have to conduct the experiment over a whole range of police shootings while trying to control for other variables. Seems like there’s quite a few problems with that approach.
Like what? Fewer murdered citizens? :rolleyes:
Maybe we could indeed change policies in a city or state, and see what happens.
OK, you don’t like that idea. Here’s another: maybe we could look at other countries where the police _aren’t_ constantly gunning down their own citizens, and compare their outcomes to ours.
> [@DirkHardly](#):
>
> …No I understand just fine. Once again, it comes with all the degrees and education. And one of the things I learned and understand is something you and others apparently can’t. And that is a person can legally respond with lethal force if they have a reasonable belief that they or others were in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm, even if that belief turns out to be false. The objective standard of the “reasonable person” appears in US law in multiple contexts and in legal systems throughout the world. Holding a person to such a standard given any particular set of facts and circumstances they find themselves in isn’t some arcane legal concept, it’s basic logic.
I and others understand that just fine. The problem is that this “reasonable person” standard does not look particularly objective. It looks like whatever the police, investigative agencies, and prosecutors think it is. There are many, many examples in which ordinary citizens are being killed by police that would fail this “reasonable person” standard, and yet the police in question are not charged or even terminated from their employment.
> [@DirkHardly](#):
>
> …And of course there are problems with American policing.
> [@pkbites](#):
>
> No, there is no problem with policing in America.
Glad to see that you two experts are on the same page. :rolleyes:
> [@pkbites](#):
>
> I have an Associate in Police Science, A Bachelor in sociology, and a Masters in Criminal Justice Administration. I was with a major metropolitan Sheriffs Office for 25 years, including having held a rank, before taking a retirement and starting a 2nd career with another large major metropolitan law enforcement department that I have been with for 13 years now, and with which I am ranked a specialist in several different fields and assignments.
>
> But Whoop Dee Freaking Doo for us. WTF do we know, right?
> [@DirkHardly](#):
>
> Yeah, I was aware of your background and you were the first person I thought of in the thread as another person who would actually know the material (a few others as well). It’s amazing how people seem to think that no one ever asked these questions before, let alone that people spend entire careers studying them. It’s even more amazing how many people are willing to spitball the issue without any actual data or evidence, whether the 60+ years of scientific research we already have on the issues or maybe even going out and getting some fresh new evidence. Either of those really, as long as there’s actual science and data involved. Doesn’t seem too much to ask.
Keep patting each other on the back, there. :rolleyes:
I am telling the two of you as a citizen of this great country of ours that you are losing the confidence of the populace. It is evident that minorities have felt this way for years. I am a member of the demographic who is probably one of the least likely to be hassled by police (white middle-aged male, clean-cut, former military, no criminal record whatsoever), and you are losing my confidence. My default assumption is to now fear and distrust the police. When my son got his drivers license at 16 I had the “talk” with him to minimize the chance of him getting involved in a tragic outcome with the police.
It shouldn’t be this way. ☹
---
### Author:  [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)
#### Post date: [February 18, 2020, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-fix-american-policing-updated/847555/144 "2020-02-18T21:58:11Z")
> [@MikeF](#):
>
> Police de-escalate thousands of times every day. You are never going to see video of that. Its boring and nothing sensational. The reason you see videos of cops not behaving perfectly is because it is unusual and sensational. Not all cops are perfect and some are far from it. **That small minority should be dealt with**. Not by the mob but by the system. If you don’t like the system, do what you can to change it. Don’t paint with a broad brush.
Emphasis Added
But often they are not dealt with unless caught on video. And even then it is not always dealt with.
Warning - Autoplaying video
If you are not a cop and were caught[in this situation](https://denver.cbslocal.com/2019/12/10/aurora-police-nate-meier/)what would happen to you.
pkbites, what do you think about how this cop was not arrested? If he were a civilian would you have let him go? Would your DA choose not to prosecute?
> [@](#):
>
> When Meier, 48, didn’t respond to attempts to wake him up, first responders smashed a car window to get him out. Officers then “reported smelling the odor of an unknown alcoholic beverage.” Meier was not taken into custody or charged, but was taken to an area hospital.
>
> He later told investigators he had gone home on duty and and drank “vodka from a bottle.” Meier lives in Parker. He admitted he was “impaired by the alcohol,” according to police investigators.
>
> Multiple sources familiar with the case said blood alcohol tests at the hospital showed Meier was at least five times the legal limit for DUI.
>
> The Aurora Police Department defended their decision to not give Meier a breathalyzer test that day, saying in part, “Due to an inability to exclude a medical condition, and absent confirmatory information, a DUI investigation was not conducted.”
---
### Author:  [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)
#### Post date: [February 18, 2020, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-fix-american-policing-updated/847555/145 "2020-02-18T22:21:13Z")
> [@MikeF](#):
>
> Robby, if you armed and a guy is behaving in such a way that you think he might have a weapon and is about to use it against your child, would you wait until he fired a shot before you shoot him? You know, just to be sure? If the police were there, should they wait?
Well, it’s a meaningless hypothetical for me because I am never armed.
While I do own firearms and have a state-issued pistol permit (which also allows me to carry a concealed weapon), I don’t feel the need to go around my community armed. If I go to the shooting range, my pistol is locked in the trunk. (BTW, I’m not unfamiliar with firearms – I earned a [U.S. Navy Expert Pistol Marksmanship Medal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marksmanship_Medal) when I was in the service.)
Do you want to know why I don’t carry a firearm, even though I’m legally allowed to do so? Because when you carry around a hammer, everything looks like a nail. (Which is something I wish our police forces would realize as well.)
A secondary reason is that having a firearm on my person is far more likely to do me harm than good. Only cops get qualified immunity. If I use deadly force, even if justified, I’m far more likely to be arrested and prosecuted. Secondly, having a gun on my person might just [get me killed by a trigger-happy cop](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Philando_Castile) during a traffic stop.
Back to your hypothetical: what exactly does “behaving in such a way that you think he might have a weapon and is about to use it against your child” look like anyway? Because I can tell you right now that “might have a weapon” is pretty vague. If it turns out that the guy is unarmed and I shoot him, and my only defense is that he _looked_ threatening and I thought he _might_ have a weapon, I will be going to jail – because only the police can get away with that kind of behavior with their qualified immunity.
Nevertheless, I’ll concede the hypothetical and answer your question: yes, I would wait. Just like I think the police should wait.
This answer does not preclude me (or the cops) from drawing my own weapon and ordering the person to put down their weapon. But no, I would not be the first to fire. Nor should the cops.
---
### Author:  [@Yankees\_1996\_Champs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yankees_1996_Champs)
#### Post date: [February 19, 2020, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-fix-american-policing-updated/847555/146 "2020-02-19T00:28:30Z")
I am glad that we started this conversation about a very serious issue in America.
Policing needs to be vastly reformed.
I have another question: What do you think about a lot of police officers, especially \*\*\*white male police officers \*\*\* who have turned extremely political since the rise of the Black Lives Matter movement.
A lot of them decorate Blue Lives Matter flags around their cars, police precinct stations etc.
A lot of them are leaning heavily towards President Trump and the GOP, even in deep blue communities they serve, like NYC, LA, Miami, Philadelphia, Chicago.
---
### Author:  [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)
#### Post date: [February 19, 2020, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-fix-american-policing-updated/847555/147 "2020-02-19T00:41:22Z")
What do you think about it?
---
### Author:  [@Yankees\_1996\_Champs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yankees_1996_Champs)
#### Post date: [February 19, 2020, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-fix-american-policing-updated/847555/148 "2020-02-19T00:55:17Z")
> [@Chingon](#):
>
> What do you think about it?
I don’t like it; a police officer should put politics aside and serve everyone; both political parties politicized the BLM movement, a lot of white cops don’t view it lightly. A lot of them on Instagram and social media, especially the younger ones, are trying to bridge gaps between civilians and police, but we will see how it will work out.
---
### Author:  [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)
#### Post date: [February 19, 2020, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-fix-american-policing-updated/847555/149 "2020-02-19T00:57:16Z")
What can we do about that tho?
---
### Author:  [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)
#### Post date: [February 19, 2020, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-fix-american-policing-updated/847555/150 "2020-02-19T05:32:57Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#):
>
> The police in this country kill 1,000 people a year, and a man with VAST law enforcement experience across multiple forces, who holds a position of respect and responsibility within his department thinks nothing is wrong.
Almost all of those were ruled justified, of the minute’ amount that weren’t almost all of the officers faced consequences. Where is the problem with an officer saving his own life? There is an undertone here that seems to suggest that it would be better if criminals killed 1000 cops per year instead. Some of you are real swell guys.
> [@Chisquirrel](#):
>
> Police officer that has admitted to letting other police officers off when they break the law thinks police officers are doing just fine.
Relax, Chisquirrel.
It’s far worse than you can imagine. I let regular people off as well. Because I head up a Focused Patrol Team I make about 400% more traffic stops than your average officer. Therefore I tend to hand out far more written and verbal warnings collectively than I do cites. Which, per my departments SOP is within my discretion to do. But I’m sure you’ll post that I’m not doing my job.
---
### Author:  [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)
#### Post date: [February 19, 2020, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-fix-american-policing-updated/847555/151 "2020-02-19T07:27:18Z")
> [@pkbites](#):
>
> The real problem in this country is the lack of consequences for criminal actions. Criminals are allowed to plea down charges, serve reduced sentences, plea down to an ordinance violation over a criminal act, etc… The revolving door justice system gave the government an excuse to try and create a police state by passing endless laws and spending more money on enforcement, prevention, and so on.
I tend to agree. However, the problem is with the criminal justice system itself, and even that is a misnomer as we don’t have a top down system. We have a random collage with many moving parts which change from case to case.
At the outset, there is simply no way to give every guilty person a harsh sentence (or so we don’t argue, a “fair” sentence). Unless the State is willing to give my client a sweetheart deal, I am going to start filing motions, picking through the evidence trying to exclude this or that. Even in a seemingly open and shut case, this takes time. The State doesn’t have that time. It’s an assembly line; clear this case and on to the next one. In order to do that, they have to install the revolving door.
Next there is pushback to this. In keeping with the spirit of the thread, something horrible and unusual happens and the political powers that be demand that Something Be Done. Some guy who had 9 prior DUIs wrecks and kills a family of four in their minivan. Some guy who was arrested 6 times prior for beating his wife kills her this time. The captain of the high school football team overdoses in a Wal-Mart bathroom.
The political powers that be put pressure on the police, the prosecutors, the judges to Do Something. They pass laws which condition grant money on coming down hard and having Zero Tolerance on these things. There are new administrative rules and new laws passed. Now you aren’t arresting drunks swerving all over the road. You arrest a guy that had a few beers at lunch because you sure as hell aren’t letting him go and have that come back on you if he wrecks. Instead of arresting wife beaters, you are playing marriage counselor to two drunk people who are arguing and then hear that one pushed the other. Oops. Off to jail. The kid with the weed that you formerly would have confiscated and told him to knock it off? He has to go.
So now in this cramped system where they were pleading people out left and right, there are real fights on the cases that involve the political issue du jour, leaving even less time for every other crime.
The guy that snatches purses left unattended at the mall gets even less attention from the criminal justice system because there is no politically powerful group that is demanding that purse snatchers’ heads be placed on platters.
And as I said, there is no top down analysis of the entire system to ensure any form of fairness. Some people get extremely light sentences, some get draconian sentences. It is not even internally consistent. In my state, the penalty for soliciting sex from an underage person on the internet is twice the penalty for actually having sex with an underage person. In what universe does that make sense?
I could go on, but in short, the system is driven by the phenomenon we see in this thread. An extreme example is taken and it is alleged that the entire system is like this so we need new policies based on the extreme example. And since the system was actually not like the extreme example, the new policy fails miserably.
---
### Author:  [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)
#### Post date: [February 19, 2020, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-fix-american-policing-updated/847555/152 "2020-02-19T07:29:50Z")
> [@pkbites](#):
>
> Relax, Chisquirrel.
>
> It’s far worse than you can imagine. I let regular people off as well. Because I head up a Focused Patrol Team I make about 400% more traffic stops than your average officer. Therefore I tend to hand out far more written and verbal warnings collectively than I do cites. Which, per my departments SOP is within my discretion to do. But I’m sure you’ll post that I’m not doing my job.
But we’re not arguing that virtually every civilian that kills someone else is completely justified in their actions and any idea to lower the number of deaths will result in a situation where
> [@You](#):
>
> criminals killed 1000 cops per year instead.
I honestly don’t give a flying fuck if you let your buddies off. I also don’t give a flying fuck that you think police are real swell guys.
---
### Author:  [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)
#### Post date: [February 19, 2020, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-fix-american-policing-updated/847555/153 "2020-02-19T07:34:27Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#):
>
> Emphasis Added
>
> But often they are not dealt with unless caught on video. And even then it is not always dealt with.
> Warning - Autoplaying video
> If you are not a cop and were caught[in this situation](https://denver.cbslocal.com/2019/12/10/aurora-police-nate-meier/)what would happen to you.
> pkbites, what do you think about how this cop was not arrested? If he were a civilian would you have let him go? Would your DA choose not to prosecute?
Remember when that random dude was passed out in a Taco Bell parking lot and was murdered by cops in California?
Oh wait, it was JUSTIFIED, because he had an unloaded handgun in the vehicle (which officers knew and commented on before blasting him away)!
---
### Author:  [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)
#### Post date: [February 19, 2020, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-fix-american-policing-updated/847555/154 "2020-02-19T11:39:56Z")
> [@pkbites](#):
>
> Almost all of those were ruled justified, of the minute’ amount that weren’t almost all of the officers faced consequences. Where is the problem with an officer saving his own life?
The problem is that there are 1,000 dead people.
The problem is that 1,000 cops had to kill someone because they feared for their lives.
The problem is that this ONLY HAPPENS HERE.
The problem is that you think 1,000 deaths at the hands of law enforcement is normal. justified. appropriate.
It isn’t.
---
### Author:  [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)
#### Post date: [February 19, 2020, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-fix-american-policing-updated/847555/155 "2020-02-19T14:57:13Z")
The problem is not that they were shot. It was that they were presenting a danger to the public and to the police. As mentioned earlier, that is not a problem with the police, cherry-picked anecdotes notwithstanding.
Regards,
Shodan
---
### Author:  [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)
#### Post date: [February 19, 2020, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-fix-american-policing-updated/847555/156 "2020-02-19T16:01:13Z")
Since 2015, the Washington Post has been keeping a real time database of fatal police shootings. What they have found is that
> [@WaPo](#):
>
> The vast majority of people shot and killed by police are armed.
Which sounds good. If the police shoot and kill someone, that person should be a threat to the public and the police.
However, because they have 4,400 shootings in their database… the “vast majority” leaves 285 people shot and killed who were unarmed, and another 155 people who were “armed” with toys.
These people are dead. People who, by definition, were NOT a significant danger to the public, were NOT a significant danger to police, because they were unarmed or carrying toys.
We have engineered a society where this is thought of as normal. About 100 people a year shot and killed by police who had no weapons to harm anyone with.
---
### Author:  [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)
#### Post date: [February 19, 2020, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-fix-american-policing-updated/847555/157 "2020-02-19T16:11:50Z")
Adding a [link](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/08/09/what-weve-learned-about-police-shootings-years-after-ferguson/?arc404=true) would have been nice…
---
### Author:  [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)
#### Post date: [February 19, 2020, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-fix-american-policing-updated/847555/158 "2020-02-19T16:16:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> The problem is not that they were shot. It was that they were presenting a danger to the public and to the police. As mentioned earlier, that is not a problem with the police, cherry-picked anecdotes notwithstanding.
>
> Regards,
> Shodan
In regards to the anecdotes, so it’s a numbers game like for every 500 justified killings then the cops are allowed to shoot 1 unarmed person in the face?
Or are you claiming everytime a cop shoots someone it is by definition justified.
---
### Author:  [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)
#### Post date: [February 19, 2020, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-fix-american-policing-updated/847555/159 "2020-02-19T17:00:44Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> The problem is not that they were shot. It was that they were presenting a danger to the public and to the police.
It is a problem when citizens are being shot by police. The mission of the police is supposedly to “protect and serve [the public],” not to terrorize and murder the populace.
And I don’t want to live in a society where the police are given free reign to execute anyone _they think_ might present a danger to the public and the police.
I was trying to see if I could find some data to see if the number of police shootings of civilians has increased over time (or not). The problem is that there isn’t a whole lot of data on this. As this 2016 [BBC article](https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-36826297) states:
> [@BBC](#):
>
> Official data on the number of people killed by the police turns out to be remarkably unreliable.
>
> “We can’t have an informed discussion, because we don’t have data,” FBI Director James Comey said in the House of Representatives in October.
>
> “People have data about who went to a movie last weekend, or how many books were sold, or how many cases of the flu walked into an emergency room. And I cannot tell you how many people were shot by police in the United States last month, last year, or anything about the demographics. And that’s a very bad place to be.”
>
> He had previously said it was “unacceptable” that the leading sources of this information were newspapers, the Washington Post and the Guardian.
The same article notes that we do have data on the number of police killed each year, and it has dropped dramatically since the 1970s, even as the number of police have increased markedly:
> [@BBC](#):
>
> “There’s a widespread perception in the American public, and particularly within law enforcement, that officers are more threatened, more endangered, more often assaulted, and more often killed than they have been historically,” says Seth Stoughton, a law professor at the University of Southern Carolina and former policeman.
>
> “I think it’s a very strong perception. People truly believe it. But factually, looking at the numbers, it’s not accurate,” he says.
>
> FBI data on police officers “feloniously killed” - killed as a result of a criminal act - indicates that the numbers have been falling, he says.
>
> Looking at the 10 years from 2006 to 2015 the annual average number of police deaths was 49.6, Stoughton says, which he notes is “down significantly from the high.”
>
> “The high was the 10-year period prior to 1980, when we had an average of 115 - actually 114.8 officers feloniously killed… in the line of duty every year.”
>
> At the same time the number of police officers has increased dramatically in the U.S.
Over the last five years, the number of civilians killed by police has hovered around 1,000 people per year. The Washington Post has been [tracking this](https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/national/police-shootings-2019/) since 2015, and it is getting much more attention in the last five years or so, as discussed in this excellent [Nature article](https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02601-9).
> [@Nature](#):
>
> …Although the databases are still imperfect, they make it clear that police officers’ use of lethal force is much more common than previously thought, and that it varies significantly across the country, including the two locations where Brown and Garner lost their lives. St Louis (of which Ferguson is a suburb) has one of the highest rates of police shooting civilians per capita in the United States, whereas New York City consistently has one of the lowest.
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> …As mentioned earlier, that is not a problem with the police, cherry-picked anecdotes notwithstanding.
Actually, it is a problem with the police. I came across this [intriguing factoid](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/police-shootings-us-death-toll-gun-control-officers-a8777046.html) in the Independent:
> [@Independent](#):
>
> The District of Columbia, for example, ranks in the top half of America’s most dangerous cities out of the nation’s 50 largest. In 2017, DC police seized more than 2,000 illegal guns. Yet, police in the district shot and killed only two people in 2017.
>
> That is a dramatic decline from the 1990s, when a Post investigation showed that the district led the nation in fatal police shootings per capita. In that decade, police shootings in the city peaked at 15. The series prompted Justice Department intervention and an extensive retraining of officers. A steep and immediate drop in fatal shootings ensued.
So retraining of police can make a difference, despite the protestations of police and their defenders in this thread that the problem is not with the police in the U.S. To the contrary, I think that is exactly where the problem is.
However, we are never going to fix the problem with policing in this country if we don’t first acknowledge that there is a problem to fix.
---
### Author:  [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)
#### Post date: [February 19, 2020, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-fix-american-policing-updated/847555/160 "2020-02-19T17:23:37Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#):
>
> In regards to the anecdotes, so it’s a numbers game like for every 500 justified killings then the cops are allowed to shoot 1 unarmed person in the face?
>
> Or are you claiming everytime a cop shoots someone it is by definition justified.
No, both suggestions are ridiculous.
It’s a numbers game insofar as the fact that police in America make more than 10 million arrests per year ([cite](https://www.statista.com/statistics/191261/number-of-arrests-for-all-offenses-in-the-us-since-1990/)). Of those 10 million arrests, the police shoot about a thousand people. Of those thousand people, the vast majority are justified by any common-sense or legal definition. The fact that all you have are cherry-picked anecdotes going back for years, as a justification that there is anything like a serious problem, means that it isn’t 500 to 1. More like 10,000 to 1.
> [@robby](#):
>
> And I don’t want to live in a society where the police are given free reign to execute anyone _they think_ might present a danger to the public and the police.
You should move to America, then.
Regards,
Shodan
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