# How would you handle this (hypothetical) rape accusation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 29, 2019, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566 "2019-12-29T23:48:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/101 "2019-12-31T19:12:32Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Your broad answer will harm real people in real classes. Maybe you didn’t think it through. Maybe you don’t care. But your “best practice” will harm people. “Broad theoretical question” is no excuse here. No additional information required other than knowing how real schools work. You will find in life that there are situations where no matter what course if action you take someone is harmed or inconvenienced. Your insistence that separating the students necessitates one person dropping belies a myopic outlook preventing you from considering other options. And at least one other poster gave an alternative way for a student to complete the course without attending class, so I assume you read that and promptly ignored it. There are no blanket answers in situations like this. You can have some general guidelines but at the end of the day you make a decision on a case by case basis. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/102 "2019-12-31T19:18:35Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I don’t believe university administrators are law enforcement. The police and judicial system are. Why not have the alleged victim take the complaint to the police? The university has people who are responsible for making sure their rules are followed. It’s the same reason HR might investigate a fight or inappropriate touching where you work. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/103 "2019-12-31T19:41:52Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > The university has people who are responsible for making sure their rules are followed. It’s the same reason HR might investigate a fight or inappropriate touching where you work. “Don’t Rape” may be a rule, but it also a LAW. The college can enforce their rules all they want, But they shouldn’t get to decide whether broken laws, especially laws involving violence, are kept from those who are sworn to enforce those laws. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/104 "2019-12-31T20:39:43Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > This delays graduation a year. Thus, harm. > > Lab times can be moved; that’s why I didn’t pick a lab. This class isn’t recorded. Even if it were, this isn’t some state school monster lecture hall; it’s an interactive class. And even if it were a uniderectional lecture, there are reasons people pay more for in-person over remote classes. And even if those were equivalent, this chemistry program involves a relatively strict sequence of classes. So we’re not talking about just one class being disrupted. > > You bet there are other options. Maybe there aren’t. Maybe this actually is the best one. But we should understand the actual costs instead of dismissing them or, as others have done, blaming them on the OP. it only delays graduation if it’s their final year. Otherwise it’s just rearranging the schedule. A good quality recording gadget costs about $100. Every class can be recorded if there’s a compelling reason to do so, like preventing someone from graduating on time. There are other ways of interacting. And there are other classes. And this: > [@Odesio](#): > > You will find in life that there are situations where no matter what course if action you take someone is harmed or inconvenienced. Your insistence that separating the students necessitates one person dropping belies a myopic outlook preventing you from considering other options. And at least one other poster gave an alternative way for a student to complete the course without attending class, so I assume you read that and promptly ignored it. > > There are no blanket answers in situations like this. You can have some general guidelines but at the end of the day you make a decision on a case by case basis. > [@Ruken](#): > > If you have data on how common it is to automatically remove an accused from class with an accuser with no evidence beyond the accusation, let’s see them. Nope. I have a single anecdote from years ago in which a man lost his job based on an accusation with no other evidence. Perhaps that’s incredibly rare. It was at Columbia University, if that’s relevant. My brother also had a promotion delayed by a year due to an accusation with no other evidence. In fact, after they completed the investigation they promoted him, and shortly thereafter the accuser was fired for a pattern of lying (of which that accusation was just one case.) But yeah, he was harmed Sometimes there’s no perfect answer. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/105 "2019-12-31T20:58:21Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > The scenario that a student would want the university but not the police to act on a complaint of sexual assault really IS an absurd hypothetical … Hmm. Take your assessment or the assessment of the experts on rape and assault (cited earlier). Such a hard choice. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > “Don’t Rape” may be a rule, but it also a LAW. The college can enforce their rules all they want, But they shouldn’t get to decide whether broken laws, especially laws involving violence, are kept from those who are sworn to enforce those laws. And they have no ability to decide on the victim’s behalf either and to force her to offer information to the police. Whether or not they have a legal obligation to pass information on to the police actually varies [by state](https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/07/06/college-law-enforcement-administrators-hear-approach-make-title-ix-more-effective). > [@](#): > > … Not everyone on campus is required to report a sexual assault to police if a student comes to them for help, and colleges are required by the U.S. Department of Education to do their own investigation, separate from that of the police. Campus police officers – who are in some cases both sworn law enforcement officers and members of a college’s staff – can find themselves straddling both kinds of investigations at once. > > In states like Wisconsin, state laws and federal laws over who must report cases of sexual assault differ, creating more confusion. … I tried to wade through this pdf on who is an is not a mandatory reporter and rights the (alleged) victim has to control their information … enough to understand it gets complicated. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/106 "2019-12-31T21:14:17Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > For upper-level courses it’s common for only one section to be available, once per year. I don’t know what accomodations you can offer that don’t delay graduation a year. Based on an accusation with either no corroborating evidence or not enough to make any determination of a crime or a policy violation. The university can make an accommodation, unhealthy and unsatisfactory as it may be, _that doesn’t include taking more fees from one student_. This can be unsatisfactory for everyone, but the critical point is that it can be really difficult for the university, and hence put way down lower on the list of actions than it should be. Part of the difficulty is that some universities depend on fees for funding \* and are completely unwilling to do anything that breaks the financial contract\*. This isn’t the opposite problem. It’s the same problem. The university needs to separate out it’s vested economic interests from the consideration of the moral and legal responsibilities. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/107 "2019-12-31T21:15:48Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > If you think a jury of your “peers” is terrifying, you’ll love a jury of the SDMB “statisticians”! Multiple sources all pretty much concur on this point. The [BBC](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45565684) reviewed it pretty recently - somewhere between 2 to 10% seems to be the number of false accusations. Others here are much more familiar with these figures than I am but I’ve never heard much that contradicts them: an alleged victim’s word alone with nothing that contradicts it may not reach the “beyond reasonable shadow of a doubt” level, but “clear and convincing” level? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/108 "2019-12-31T21:22:33Z")
I woke up thinking about this thread this morning and realized one important factor we (and certainly I) haven’t explicitly considered: Title IX. Title IX requires that the college take whatever steps are necessary for the reporting student to be able to complete her education, including, as I understand it, transferring her to other classes, getting extensions on papers/exams, transferring her to another dorm, etcetera. The stickiest event would be if both students were in the only course section offered that semester AND the course was a requirement in both their majors AND it’s their last semester before graduation. In that case, the college should have the (alleged) assailant not attend the course–though he could meet with the professor, get class notes from others, take tests separately, etc. until the campus investigation is complete, at which time, if there’s no evidence to indicate he’s guilty, he could be afforded whatever accommodations he needs to complete the course. The campus is _required_ to launch an investigation _regardless_ of whether the assault is reported to the police. I refuse to assume in advance that, as in the OP’s hypothetical, there is no evidence. \*\*That’s what an investigation determines. \*\*Maybe the VICTIM doesn’t recognize there were witnesses when there actually were. Maybe during the investigation, other students will disclose the (alleged) assailant assaulted them and that they didn’t report it, necessitating further investigation. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/109 "2019-12-31T21:30:28Z")
Witnesses need not have witnessed the rape to still provide corraborating evidence. If the accusers roommate tells investigators that the accused was very upset on the night of the incident, that’s evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/110 "2019-12-31T22:28:25Z")
Doesnt it also matter if it happened on or off campus? If off campus in say someones apartment that would be outside the colleges domain. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/111 "2019-12-31T23:52:55Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Multiple sources all pretty much concur on this point. The [BBC](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45565684) reviewed it pretty recently - somewhere between 2 to 10% seems to be the number of false accusations. > > Others here are much more familiar with these figures than I am but I’ve never heard much that contradicts them: an alleged victim’s word alone with nothing that contradicts it may not reach the “beyond reasonable shadow of a doubt” level, but “clear and convincing” level? Yes. As noted before, the methodology on these studies are not up to par. Unless the accuser recants, there is nothing to say that a particular confession is “false.” ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2020, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/112 "2020-01-01T02:32:53Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > As noted before, the methodology on these studies are not up to par. Unless the accuser recants, there is nothing to say that a particular confession is “false.” I assume you mean “a particular accusation is false.” But certainly a recantation is not the only evidence of a false accusation. The accused could have an alibi, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2020, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/113 "2020-01-01T03:02:07Z")
While it’s been partially addressed, I should directly address some aspects of OP: > [@](#): > > 1. There are no state/federal laws that mandate that you take a particular course of action (i.e., “you must give the accused the benefit of presumption of innocence” or something like that.) Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972 creates several complex legal requirements for all educational institutions that receive public funds, be they private or public schools (because this even includes private schools that simply admit students who are financing their education via FAFSA loans, virtually all colleges in the United States are subject to the law regardless of their legal structure.) So this stipulation is just so plainly non-factual that it should be considered invalid. > [@](#): > > 1. The school itself has no policies or precedents that lay out what you are to do, or not do, in this situation. Under the above mentioned Title IX, the school will be legally required to have such procedures and policies. I would wager virtually any amount of money every legitimate college in the United States has a policy/written procedure on how to handle student-on-student claims of sexual assault. Other than that what a University President should do is pretty simple, even if some of the mechanics involved are complex. 1. Any State/Federal legal requirements I have to meet, I would meet, as part of my custodial responsibilities to administrate the school in compliance with the law. 2. Any existing university policies would be followed. 3. Recognizing as a University President I am not equipped to help someone who may have been sexually assaulted, I would refer them to counseling and other medical help they might need. I would avoid trying to offer impromptu counseling myself because of my lack of qualification to do so and fear that an untrained approach on such a thing could cause more harm. 4. Assuming no criminal case occurs and the university investigation process does not result in any adverse findings against the accused student, I would still endeavor to accommodate the accuser as best as possible for her mental health and well being. This would include accommodations that would minimize any contact she would have to have with the student she accused. However since no adverse findings, either at the criminal or university level, had been found against the accused, I do not believe I would be on firm legal footing to take any adverse actions against him (i.e. forcing him to move to a different dorm or forcing him to withdraw from classes.) Without knowing specifics, I would speculate that in most situations the school exposes itself to legal liability if it takes adverse actions against a student when a university pre-defined process has not found any wrongdoing by the student proven to whatever legal standard was present in the university process. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2020, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/114 "2020-01-01T03:17:50Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972 creates several complex legal requirements for all educational institutions that receive public funds, be they private or public schools (because this even includes private schools that simply admit students who are financing their education via FAFSA loans, virtually all colleges in the United States are subject to the law regardless of their legal structure.) So this stipulation is just so plainly non-factual that it should be considered invalid. > > Under the above mentioned Title IX, the school will be legally required to have such procedures and policies. I would wager virtually any amount of money every legitimate college in the United States has a policy/written procedure on how to handle student-on-student claims of sexual assault. Here is what Title IX says: > [@](#): > > No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance, except that after the “except that” it lists where discrimination on the basis of sex is permissible. As an aside, it is utterly amazing that the government can impose upon universities these requirements because of that language. For example, why couldn’t a university say that they will have no policy at all regarding sexual assault allegations and leave that to the police? How is that discrimination “on the basis of sex”? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2020, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/115 "2020-01-01T03:56:03Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > If you think a jury of your “peers” is terrifying, you’ll love a jury of the SDMB “statisticians”! You may not like the statistics but that’s what they say: the odds that somebody is a victim of a sexual assault are much higher than the odds that somebody is the victim of a false accusation of sexual assault. So in a situation like the OP described, the accuser is more likely to be telling the truth than the accused. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2020, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/116 "2020-01-01T04:15:38Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You may not like the statistics but that’s what they say: the odds that somebody is a victim of a sexual assault are much higher than the odds that somebody is the victim of a false accusation of sexual assault. So in a situation like the OP described, the accuser is more likely to be telling the truth than the accused. Can you cite one of these statistics with a link to the methodology? As someone can be convicted on the uncorroborated testimony of an alleged victim, I wonder how these studies determine that an allegation is “false.” For example, in these studies (and not to rehash it) what category would the Thomas or Kavanaugh allegations be placed in? And I really don’t want to rehash it, but it certainly wouldn’t be part of the “false” category, although these allegations may be false. Further, there were several follow up allegations against Thomas and Kavanaugh. All not in the “false” category? What about those against Trump and Clinton? All not in the “false” category? You see my point. You can’t say that an allegation is false without some powerful evidence saying it is false. So the methodology is important. ---
**Author:** ![MarvinKitFox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@MarvinKitFox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarvinKitFox)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2020, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/117 "2020-01-01T05:36:34Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Dont investigate, call the Police, they will investigate. This. We either have the very serious crime committed, that a man has raped a woman. OR We have the very serious crime committed, that a woman is trying to frame a man and utterly destroy his life. Frankly, i lean towards the second as more likely. Someone that DOES want authority to investigate, but does NOT want the police to investigate, sounds like someone with something to hide by resorting to the agency that is less competent to investigate the actual truth. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2020, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/118 "2020-01-01T05:48:52Z")
> [@MarvinKitFox](#): > > This. > > We either have the very serious crime committed, that a man has raped a woman. > OR > We have the very serious crime committed, that a woman is trying to frame a man and utterly destroy his life. > Frankly, i lean towards the second as more likely. Someone that DOES want authority to investigate, but does NOT want the police to investigate, sounds like someone with something to hide by resorting to the agency that is less competent to investigate the actual truth. I think the first is far more likely. But yes, let professionals do their jobs. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2020, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/119 "2020-01-01T06:01:42Z")
> [@MarvinKitFox](#): > > We either have the very serious crime committed, that a man has raped a woman. > OR > We have the very serious crime committed, that a woman is trying to frame a man and utterly destroy his life. Those are not the only two options. But more to the point, in the face of what is unknown or unknowable, it is possible to respond to the accuser as if they are a victim deserving of help without simultaneously taking adverse action against the accused as if they are guilty. Because I guess that needs to be said again. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2020, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/120 "2020-01-01T06:03:45Z")
> [@MarvinKitFox](#): > > This. > > We either have the very serious crime committed, that a man has raped a woman. > OR > We have the very serious crime committed, that a woman is trying to frame a man and utterly destroy his life. > Frankly, i lean towards the second as more likely. Someone that DOES want authority to investigate, but does NOT want the police to investigate, sounds like someone with something to hide by resorting to the agency that is less competent to investigate the actual truth. Then it’s time we help you out of your ignorance. Victims don’t hesitate or refuse to inform police because they “have something to hide.” They do so because less than 10% of all sexual assault reports result in conviction and because they know that no matter how solid their case is, the defense will paint them as aggressive, lying trollops. They do so because they’re afraid the assailant will attack them again out of rage. They do so because the incident was so traumatic, pretending like it never happened is preferable to reliving it by recounting it to often-skeptical cops. The rate of false reports is very low, but some people like to believe it’s high because they’d rather believe women are apt to be seductive, lying Jezebels than to believe nice, apparently normal young men can sexually assault women. They feel safer that way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566.md?page=7)