# How would you handle this (hypothetical) rape accusation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 29, 2019, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566 "2019-12-29T23:48:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2020, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/141 "2020-01-02T05:33:20Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > **Urbanredneck** may have had a point about the apartment, though. Let’s say I’m the dean and a student comes to me and accuses another student of raping her at his off-campus apartment. She says nobody knows she was there and otherwise refuses to consent to any evidence or municipal police involvement. The question I’m wondering about is whether we, the university, should have the right to force the accused to let us search his home for evidence. > > Legally we could try to write it into the enrollment contract - if you attend our university and live within X miles, you have to let us search your home whenever we want. That might be found unconscionable, since students don’t really have any bargaining power and we wouldn’t be liable for the crime anyways. Such an intrusion would only be justified by claiming that it makes all of our students safer, but it would be highly inconsistent since we don’t investigate other crimes committed off-campus in private establishments. Just imagine the headlines… “Florida man asks for totalitarian school policy” “Warrantless searches backed by threat of expulsion” “Students protest: we have rights” > > Contrast with frat houses which are actually affiliated with the campus and probably receive title IX funding. > > I’m leaning heavily towards telling the girl that a complete investigation will require cooperation with municipal authorities who have warrant powers, and that as the case stands we don’t have enough evidence to act. > > ~Max In addition to the unconstitutional conditions problem you mention, I don’t believe that any university police department in the country has a forensics unit such that a search of an apartment would do any good. If we are at that level, we are at regular police level. My only point was in response to the idea that if it happened off campus then it is hands off for the university. Like any organization it can have its own rules of personal conduct and can expel or take disciplinary action for conduct which does not occur on campus. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2020, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/142 "2020-01-02T05:44:40Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > … > I’m leaning heavily towards telling the girl that a complete investigation will require cooperation with municipal authorities who have warrant powers, and that as the case stands we don’t have enough evidence to act. Let the police do that, they are hard to sue. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2020, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/143 "2020-01-02T07:56:14Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > A university Title IX investigation is independent of a criminal investigation. Of course, but I wouldn’t think the university is required to open a Title IX investigation for a rape that takes place off-campus at a private, unaffiliated residence. I would think the school is immune from liability, unlike say, on-campus residences or an affiliated fraternity house But I’m really way out of my area of expertise here. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2020, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/144 "2020-01-02T08:27:45Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Of course, but I wouldn’t think the university is required to open a Title IX investigation for a rape that takes place off-campus at a private, unaffiliated residence. I would think the school is immune from liability, unlike say, on-campus residences or an affiliated fraternity house > > But I’m really way out of my area of expertise here. > > ~Max If the (alleged) assailant and the victim are both students at the university, they do. A Title IX investigation is NOT a university-level criminal investigation. [This](https://www.correiaputh.com/news/hook-off-campus-sexual-assault/) explains it: > [@](#): > > If a student files a complaint with the school, **regardless of where the conduct occurred,** the school **must** process the complaint in accordance with its established procedures. Because **students often experience the continuing effects of off-campus sexual harassment in the educational setting** , schools should consider the effects of the off-campus conduct when evaluating whether there is a hostile environment on campus… > > Sexual harassment, sexual assault, and rape are serious no matter where they occur, and schools and universities should make sure to take every appropriate step to ensure their students have access to an education free from the damaging effects of that conduct. Hope this helps. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2020, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/145 "2020-01-02T08:55:25Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > If the (alleged) assailant and the victim are both students at the university, they do. A Title IX investigation is NOT a university-level criminal investigation. [This](https://www.correiaputh.com/news/hook-off-campus-sexual-assault/) explains it: > > Hope this helps. Hmm, OK. Assuming the victim does not provide enough evidence for me to discipline the accused, and does not want to involve the police, how else do we get additional documents and evidence, except through voluntary production from the accused? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2020, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/146 "2020-01-02T10:52:09Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > If you have data on how common it is to automatically remove an accused from class with an accuser with no evidence beyond the accusation, let’s see them. Why do you keep assuming it would be the accused who would be removed? Why wouldn’t it be the accuser who wants to get away from the person they claim raped them? Why wouldn’t the special accommodations be made for them, and not the accused? Not that removal from the class is the only option. I was actually in a class in college where one student put out a restraining order on another student. There wasn’t another offered class of the type, so the result was that both of them had to sit on opposite sides of the room and never interact with each other in any way. I also remember situations where students could not attend classes for various reasons, and the teachers would set up private sessions with them. That also seems a workable solution for keeping two students separated. No matter what, something has happened between these two students. A rape, a misunderstanding, a false accusation, whatever. Keeping the students separated is a good idea, and there are various ways of doing so, each with their pros and cons. And it is ultimately up to them to decide how “harmful” any of them are. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2020, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/147 "2020-01-03T07:59:13Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Hmm, OK. Assuming the victim does not provide enough evidence for me to discipline the accused, and does not want to involve the police, how else do we get additional documents and evidence, except through voluntary production from the accused? > > ~Max As I noted earlier, the university would examine cell phone records, social media, as well as interviewing others. They don’t dust for fingerprints. The primary goal of Title IX is **not** to “discipline” the accused but to ensure the victim has fair access to education free of discrimination and sexual harassment/assault and to protect others in the student body. If the university determines from the evidence–and again, we’re talking much lower standards than “beyond a reasonable doubt”–that the only way to do that would be to expel the accused and bar him from campus, that may happen. Or class schedules might be changed. Or the victim would get extensions on deadlines for papers, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2020, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/148 "2020-01-03T18:56:10Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Again, what is the methodology behind these conclusions? How does one determine when an allegation is “false”? None of you cites explain their conclusions. My point was that sexual assaults are far more common than false accusations of sexual assaults. Are you disputing that fact? If so, say so. But if you’re agreeing with the fact, I don’t see any reason to get into a discussion about the various methodologies used to arrive at it. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2020, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/149 "2020-01-03T21:25:15Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > As I noted earlier, the university would examine cell phone records, social media, as well as interviewing others. They don’t dust for fingerprints. The primary goal of Title IX is **not** to “discipline” the accused but to ensure the victim has fair access to education free of discrimination and sexual harassment/assault and to protect others in the student body. If the university determines from the evidence–and again, we’re talking much lower standards than “beyond a reasonable doubt”–that the only way to do that would be to expel the accused and bar him from campus, that may happen. Or class schedules might be changed. Or the victim would get extensions on deadlines for papers, etc. I was under the impression that the university cannot compel the production of phone records, “private” social media posts, letters, etc. Neither do I think they can compel testimony from people not affiliated with the school. So if a victim comes to me without enough evidence to support a case, and involving the municipal authorities is off the table, all I can do is interview the accused. If the accused’s testimony is unimpeachable, then what? Let’s say the victim claims that the accused’s roommate (who is not a student) was in the room while she was being raped. She alleges that the roommate placed two calls to someone named “Steve”, and that they talked about a drug transaction and must have overheard her being raped. The accused says he was home with his roommate and does not remember if somebody named “Steve” was called. The roommate volunteered testimony and said he could not remember calling anybody, and he has since lost his phone. The roommate refused to volunteer records from the phone company, even as accused asks him, citing personal privacy. Both accused and roommate claim not to know who Steve is. If I could confirm a “Steve” was really called twice at the time given, that would contradict the accused’s testimony. But I can’t compel the roommate to produce phone records, and I can’t fault the accused if his roommate refuses to volunteer phone records. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/150 "2020-01-04T01:12:28Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > My point was that sexual assaults are far more common than false accusations of sexual assaults. Are you disputing that fact? If so, say so. > > But if you’re agreeing with the fact, I don’t see any reason to get into a discussion about the various methodologies used to arrive at it. I am saying that we have no way of knowing that without seeing the methodology of these studies. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/151 "2020-01-04T01:33:19Z")
What would you guess is more common? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/152 "2020-01-04T03:04:30Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I am saying that we have no way of knowing that without seeing the methodology of these studies. So you’re Just Asking Questions. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/153 "2020-01-04T03:50:19Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So you’re Just Asking Questions. No. Posters in this thread have made claims that false allegations of sexual assault are vanishingly rare. This being GD, I would like a cite to studies with methodology. I think I have made a decent prima facie case. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/154 "2020-01-04T07:24:18Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I was under the impression that the university cannot compel the production of phone records, “private” social media posts, letters, etc. Neither do I think they can compel testimony from people not affiliated with the school. > > So if a victim comes to me without enough evidence to support a case, and involving the municipal authorities is off the table, all I can do is interview the accused. If the accused’s testimony is unimpeachable, then what? > > Let’s say the victim claims that the accused’s roommate (who is not a student) was in the room while she was being raped. She alleges that the roommate placed two calls to someone named “Steve”, and that they talked about a drug transaction and must have overheard her being raped. > > The accused says he was home with his roommate and does not remember if somebody named “Steve” was called. The roommate volunteered testimony and said he could not remember calling anybody, and he has since lost his phone. The roommate refused to volunteer records from the phone company, even as accused asks him, citing personal privacy. Both accused and roommate claim not to know who Steve is. > > If I could confirm a “Steve” was really called twice at the time given, that would contradict the accused’s testimony. But I can’t compel the roommate to produce phone records, and I can’t fault the accused if his roommate refuses to volunteer phone records. > > ~Max I’m not a lawyer and certainly not one specializing in Title IX cases. I won’t address any more hypotheticals. You seem determined to make this into an investigation to determine guilt, and as I’ve said a few times now, _ **it’s not** _. If the victim has cell phone or social media records, the college could access those. If the accused refuses to hand over evidence he may have, it’s not considered. OK? Here it is one more time: THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF A TITLE IX INVESTIGATION IS TO ENSURE THE VICTIM HAS EQUAL ACCESS TO EDUCATION. TITLE IX IS TO HELP THE VICTIM. REGARDLESS OF ANYTHING ELSE, THE COLLEGE MUST TAKE STEPS TO HELP THE VICTIM, INCLUDING COUNSELING, EXTENDED TIME FOR ESSAYS, ETC. IF THE EVIDENCE–WHATEVER IT IS–SHOWS THE ACCUSED IS A PROBABLE THREAT TO THE VICTIM OR OTHERS ON CAMPUS, THE COLLEGE COULD EXPEL HIM. IF THE EVIDENCE DOES NOT SHOW THIS, THE ACCUSED GOES ON HIS MERRY WAY, BUT THE COLLEGE MUST STILL TAKES STEPS (ABOVE, AND MY PREVIOUS POSTS HERE) TO HELP THE VICTIM. NOTHING HAPPENS TO THE ACCUSED. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/155 "2020-01-05T00:32:33Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF A TITLE IX INVESTIGATION IS TO ENSURE THE VICTIM HAS EQUAL ACCESS TO EDUCATION. TITLE IX IS TO HELP THE VICTIM. > > REGARDLESS OF ANYTHING ELSE, THE COLLEGE MUST TAKE STEPS TO HELP THE VICTIM, INCLUDING COUNSELING, EXTENDED TIME FOR ESSAYS, ETC. > > IF THE EVIDENCE–WHATEVER IT IS–SHOWS THE ACCUSED IS A PROBABLE THREAT TO THE VICTIM OR OTHERS ON CAMPUS, THE COLLEGE COULD EXPEL HIM. > > IF THE EVIDENCE DOES NOT SHOW THIS, THE ACCUSED GOES ON HIS MERRY WAY, BUT THE COLLEGE MUST STILL TAKES STEPS (ABOVE, AND MY PREVIOUS POSTS HERE) TO HELP THE VICTIM. NOTHING HAPPENS TO THE ACCUSED. No need to shout, it actually makes it harder for me to read. I don’t see a difference between expelling a student I find to be a probable threat and determining that he violated the code of conduct (is guilty). I mean, expulsion is discipline. Class reassignment is discipline. To me, the dean, the entire point of bringing in the accused at all is to discipline them. I don’t need to do hear anything from the accused to give a victim access to counseling or… did you say extended time for essays? 😕 I mean yes, there is a chance that people could abuse the system and lie about being raped to get free counseling. I’m not sure whether I should be concerned about that. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/156 "2020-01-05T02:15:02Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > No. Posters in this thread have made claims that false allegations of sexual assault are vanishingly rare. This being GD, I would like a cite to studies with methodology. I think I have made a decent prima facie case. No you have not, in fact what you are doing is a perfect example of \*moving the goalposts. \*You ask for a cite, you are given a great cite, then you say you need a cite for the methodology. But here is another: > **[Publications\_NSVRC\_Overview\_False-Reporting.pdf](https://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/Publications_NSVRC_Overview_False-Reporting.pdf)** > > 285.95 KB _A review of research finds that the prevalence of false reporting is between 2 percent and 10 percent. The following studies support these findings:_ and another: > **[False-allegations-of-sexual-abuse-by-children-and-adolescents.pdf](https://www.nationalcac.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/False-allegations-of-sexual-abuse-by-children-and-adolescents.pdf)** > > 662.23 KB T\*he five studies mentioned above and this study are consistent in suggesting a false allegation rate of between 2 and 8% among child and adolescent reports of sexual abuse. \* So, since _you_ are the one making the claim, _you_ come up with a cite that shows that false allegations of sexual assault are common. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/157 "2020-01-06T16:45:36Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > So then throw the accuser out of class. What? It’s not a punishment. So one person is accused of physical assault, the other of…talking about it. And you think they should be treated equally? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/158 "2020-01-06T17:49:16Z")
Accusing someone of a crime is a bit more than just talking. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/159 "2020-01-06T19:13:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Accusing someone of a crime is a bit more than just talking. > > Regards, > Shodan Is it your claim that talking equals physical assault? _Internal_ assault? Do you dispute that physical assault is very different from talking? ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566/160 "2020-01-06T19:40:18Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I call the police. It’s their job. Not the universities. Not according to Federal regulations under Title IX. Universities are required to investigate and to provide safe places for students to get their education. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-handle-this-hypothetical-rape-accusation/845566.md?page=9)